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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; annalex; jo kus; Quix; kosta50
What a beautiful testimony, dear Kolokotronis! Thank you so much for sharing those insights!

At the risk of getting into semantics on such a vital Spiritual matter (and any difference would have to be mere semantics) --- I would like to mention that even most physicists will admit two crucial points of causation that lead to the conclusion that “existence exists” or to put it in the terms God used, I AM. They are:

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

Thus all cosmologies whether inflationary (big bang), multi-verse, ekpyrotic, cyclic, hesitating, multi-world, imaginary time or whatever – all of them – require space/time for physical causality.

In other words, even in physical cosmology, there is always a beginning ex nihilo of space/time, a cause for causation itself.

And there is no other possibility for the uncaused cause than God Himself. Thus some physicists sum it up by saying “existence exists” evidently because they cannot quite bring themselves to name God while “doing” science. LOL!

The Hebrew term for the Greek phrase or concept you have used is Ayn Sof which is God the Creator, The term basically means “no-thing”- One without end from which all being emerges and into which all being dissolves.

In Metaphysics, Aristotle speaks of first cause and final cause in terms of the finite – but of a Truth, Jesus Christ is The First Cause and The Final Cause, Alpha and Omega. Interestingly, Revelation refers to both the Father and the Son as Alpha and Omega.

12,587 posted on 04/13/2007 8:42:01 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; annalex; jo kus; Quix
Fantastic post, A-G. Thanks also to Kolo.

As far as "time" is concerned, it records change. Change is the result of corruption, for that which is incorrupt doesn't change. Thus, we say that God is eternal (a chronological concept) because He is without corrption and outside of nature (i.e. supra-natural).

God certainly did not create time, as we know it, as He did not create corruption. Genesis speaks of 'days' but these are not earthly days; rather they represent God's creative work.

Corruption is found in all of Creation, as we can witness galactic cataclysms from millions of years ago.

Galactic collisions, supernovae explosions of dying stars, etc. all point towards corruption, yet obviously these worlds were not created for us, and therefore could not have been affected by our Fall.

In other words, the galactic realities tell us that corruption predates man. And that clashes with everything the Bible says.

Something is amiss.

12,589 posted on 04/13/2007 10:07:05 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Very well put, imho.

Felt that way but didn’t quite know how to put it into words. Much appreciated.


12,594 posted on 04/13/2007 11:58:56 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Forest Keeper; annalex; jo kus; Quix; kosta50
"In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist."

OK, and thus, God does not "exist" in any way that physicists, or the rest of us for that matter, exist or can meaningfully comprehend, except through the Incarnation. +Athanasius the Great in "On the Incarnation" argues that the Incarnation occurred because, among other reasons, mankind needed God to tangibly exist as a man for us to understand enough about God that we could fulfill our original created purpose which was to be fully in the image and likeness of God, our ability to receive and respond to God's grace having been lost in the Fall. Prior to the Fall, as we know, Adam and Eve knew God in an intimate way; He walked in the Garden as we are told. Abraham, Moses, some of the prophets, knew God in nearly as intimate a way, but they were few and far between and even they were in bondage to death through the Sin of Adam; even they, holy patriarchs and prophets, could not become beings in the likeness of God.

In Christ God becomes tangible, "real" for us, someone we can, for lack of a better term, "relate to", touch, see, taste. The history of the Jewish people prior to the Incarnation demonstrates why this was necessary in the economy of salvation. There weren't all that many OT righteous, were there! It seems however, that God simply becoming man was not and never would be enough to effectuate our theosis because the Fall did more than merely darken the collective nous, or eye of the soul, of mankind to the point of near opacity. Adam's Sin so distorted mankind's "spiritual DNA" that we chose, and often choose, sin over God. Rather than responding to God's grace and transform our lives into a likeness of God, we make choices which cause us to "miss the mark" (amartia=sin)which is God. That Sin of Adam makes us love our sins but sin exacts a terrible price on each of us as individuals and on Creation as a whole. Because God gave us dominion over the earth, our failing to be like God corrupts everything around us and the result of that, ultimately, is death, a permanent separation from God. In this sense, we become like the sterile fig tree, lovingly planted and given all that is necessary to thrive and fulfill its purpose of producing figs, but doesn't. It is fit only to be uprooted and burned. Christ simply being here with us, in and of itself, was not and would never be enough.

The penalty of our sin, death, had such a grip on humanity that it held us behind "bronze doors" in a bondage so strong no man could break it. By publicly sharing in our physical death, Christ could "descend to the dead" and confront death in its abode. +Chrysostomos says, "He destroyed Hades when He descended into it. He put it into an uproar even as it tasted of His flesh. Isaiah foretold this when he said, "You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering Him below."

Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with. It was in an uproar because it is mocked. It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed. It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated. It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive. Hell took a body, and discovered God. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see. O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory?"

The bronze doors were broken open and the bonds of death shattered. We are no longer doomed by reason of Adam's Sin. We can be transformed into the likeness of God as we were originally intended to be. God of course could have dispensed with all of this and simply told us He had "waved a hand" and death was done for. God of course knows His creatures better than we know ourselves. He didn't need the Incarnation with the birth, life, crucifixion, death and Glorious Resurrection of Christ. We did and do. He didn't create sin and death, we did. He didn't place in bondage to death, we did. But..."...God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish,..." And so we call God "Φιλανθροπε" Lover of Mankind.

Now this comes full circle, AG. The ancient Greek philosophers spoke of an unmoved mover, others of a first cause. Physicists today theorize right up to a transcendent God but stop just short. The devotees of Mohammedanism recognize the complete transcendence of God and stop right there, worshiping an unknown indeed unknowable monster (an inevitability since they reject the death and resurrection of Christ). Even some Christians, while acknowledging that God is the Lover of Mankind, view the crucifixion and death of Christ as an event demanded by God to satisfy some blood lust of God's on account of our sinfulness. But what we really have as Christians is an assurance that if we "take advantage" of the opportunity presented to us through grace to transform our lives into a likeness of God, we can share "eternally" in the divine energies of our utterly transcendent God. This is a unique understanding of the economy of salvation throughout the history of mankind. It has never ceased to amaze me since we alone, existing, created beings, can come into communion with, know, love and be loved by "Ο ΩΝ", Who does not "exist".

12,596 posted on 04/14/2007 5:10:09 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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