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"In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist."

OK, and thus, God does not "exist" in any way that physicists, or the rest of us for that matter, exist or can meaningfully comprehend, except through the Incarnation. +Athanasius the Great in "On the Incarnation" argues that the Incarnation occurred because, among other reasons, mankind needed God to tangibly exist as a man for us to understand enough about God that we could fulfill our original created purpose which was to be fully in the image and likeness of God, our ability to receive and respond to God's grace having been lost in the Fall. Prior to the Fall, as we know, Adam and Eve knew God in an intimate way; He walked in the Garden as we are told. Abraham, Moses, some of the prophets, knew God in nearly as intimate a way, but they were few and far between and even they were in bondage to death through the Sin of Adam; even they, holy patriarchs and prophets, could not become beings in the likeness of God.

In Christ God becomes tangible, "real" for us, someone we can, for lack of a better term, "relate to", touch, see, taste. The history of the Jewish people prior to the Incarnation demonstrates why this was necessary in the economy of salvation. There weren't all that many OT righteous, were there! It seems however, that God simply becoming man was not and never would be enough to effectuate our theosis because the Fall did more than merely darken the collective nous, or eye of the soul, of mankind to the point of near opacity. Adam's Sin so distorted mankind's "spiritual DNA" that we chose, and often choose, sin over God. Rather than responding to God's grace and transform our lives into a likeness of God, we make choices which cause us to "miss the mark" (amartia=sin)which is God. That Sin of Adam makes us love our sins but sin exacts a terrible price on each of us as individuals and on Creation as a whole. Because God gave us dominion over the earth, our failing to be like God corrupts everything around us and the result of that, ultimately, is death, a permanent separation from God. In this sense, we become like the sterile fig tree, lovingly planted and given all that is necessary to thrive and fulfill its purpose of producing figs, but doesn't. It is fit only to be uprooted and burned. Christ simply being here with us, in and of itself, was not and would never be enough.

The penalty of our sin, death, had such a grip on humanity that it held us behind "bronze doors" in a bondage so strong no man could break it. By publicly sharing in our physical death, Christ could "descend to the dead" and confront death in its abode. +Chrysostomos says, "He destroyed Hades when He descended into it. He put it into an uproar even as it tasted of His flesh. Isaiah foretold this when he said, "You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering Him below."

Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with. It was in an uproar because it is mocked. It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed. It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated. It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive. Hell took a body, and discovered God. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see. O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory?"

The bronze doors were broken open and the bonds of death shattered. We are no longer doomed by reason of Adam's Sin. We can be transformed into the likeness of God as we were originally intended to be. God of course could have dispensed with all of this and simply told us He had "waved a hand" and death was done for. God of course knows His creatures better than we know ourselves. He didn't need the Incarnation with the birth, life, crucifixion, death and Glorious Resurrection of Christ. We did and do. He didn't create sin and death, we did. He didn't place in bondage to death, we did. But..."...God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish,..." And so we call God "Φιλανθροπε" Lover of Mankind.

Now this comes full circle, AG. The ancient Greek philosophers spoke of an unmoved mover, others of a first cause. Physicists today theorize right up to a transcendent God but stop just short. The devotees of Mohammedanism recognize the complete transcendence of God and stop right there, worshiping an unknown indeed unknowable monster (an inevitability since they reject the death and resurrection of Christ). Even some Christians, while acknowledging that God is the Lover of Mankind, view the crucifixion and death of Christ as an event demanded by God to satisfy some blood lust of God's on account of our sinfulness. But what we really have as Christians is an assurance that if we "take advantage" of the opportunity presented to us through grace to transform our lives into a likeness of God, we can share "eternally" in the divine energies of our utterly transcendent God. This is a unique understanding of the economy of salvation throughout the history of mankind. It has never ceased to amaze me since we alone, existing, created beings, can come into communion with, know, love and be loved by "Ο ΩΝ", Who does not "exist".

Magnificent essay, dear Kolokotronis! Sad that it is posted on such a long, old thread – it would make for a great article in its own right, especially in light of the last paragraph.

And thank you oh so very much for your encouragements and insights, dear kosta50 and Quix!

Because the subjects I'd like to address are related to all of your posts, I hope y'all don't mind that I am consolidating the reply here.

kosta50: As far as "time" is concerned, it records change. Change is the result of corruption, for that which is incorrupt doesn't change. Thus, we say that God is eternal (a chronological concept) because He is without corrption and outside of nature (i.e. supra-natural).

Indeed, Aristotle used counting (1,2,3 etc.) to explain time.

And since the 1850’s, when Rudolf Clausius first identified entropy, scientists point to that phenomenon to explain time. Entropy is energy turned to waste, the concept that eventually became known as the “second law of thermodynamics.” Cars rust, our bodies fall apart with age, etc. and thus man senses that time proceeds in one direction (the arrow of time.)

Side comment: I might add that the sense of time passing would be the obvious consequence of being an observer "in" space/time. An arrow of time is meaningless in timelessness.

But of a truth the concept of change v permanence vis-à-vis the sense of time passing is quite ancient. Heraclitus, a pre-Socratic philosopher, was first to identify that dynamic relations obtain between permanence and flux. And we can see that dynamic in the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

IOW, the first law of thermodynamics is that energy is conserved (permanence) and the second the energy is dissipated, i.e. entropy increases (flux.)

It also has a parallel in mathematics, i.e. the fractal. Fractals display self similarity at all scales. A common example is a coastline, the shorter the ruler, the longer the length measured.

Or for more fun, try the Mandelbrot set by clicking here. Just click on the “draw set” and “ok” - then click on zoom in (or out) and select some point and “ok”.

The two aspects of permanence and change become apparent in viewing the Mandelbrot set – the infinite and the finite – the self-similarity that obtains.

Eugene Wigner coined the term “unreasonable effectiveness” in his famous essay when he illustrated that math is unreasonably effective in understanding nature. A great example is Riemannian geometry which was described with no known application for it – and yet when Einstein was needing to describe the structure of space/time, he was able to pull Riemannian geometry off the shelf to do so.

Fascinating.

The flux/permanence phenomenon also can be seen in biological systems. For instance, “you” remain “you” even though every molecule in your body is replaced every seven years. Likewise, every molecular machine in your body will struggle for “you” to survive, even though the machinery has no brain or physical reason to do so. For instance, the molecular machinery will find new paths to route blood around dead tissue in your heart should you suffer a heart attack.

My assertion is that God the Father has revealed Himself in four different ways: in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son – in the Holy Spirit – in Scriptures – and in Creation.

More specifically to our conversation here, I assert that we can see all four revelations speaking of this dynamic relationship between permanence and flux. God is permanent (I AM) whereas carnal men (who have not yet become Christian) are entirely in the flux of this corrupted, physical realm.

Yet for those of us who have died to this world, the new heaven and new earth is assured - and there perhaps there will be no flux anymore:

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. - Ex 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. – Malachi 3:6

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. – Hebrews 13:8

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. – John 3:6-7

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. – Gal 2:20

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Col 3:3

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. – Matt 10:39

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea... and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end... – Rev 21:1-8

Praise God!!! Maranatha, Jesus!

kosta50: In other words, the galactic realities tell us that corruption predates man. And that clashes with everything the Bible says.

The leaning that I have in the Spirit sees no problem here, i.e. that Genesis 1 is written from the aspect of God as the observer and author and the subject is not only the creation of the physical realm but the spiritual as well. Further, the leaning I have is that Genesis 2 through 4 occur in the spiritual realm and culminates when Adam is banished to mortality thus beginning the Adamic clock, Rosh Hashanah – Adam’s “birth” date, when his mortal clock began .

Scriptural evidence for all of this includes:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Gen 1:1

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. – Gen 2:1

The Tree of Life which is in the center of the Garden of Eden (Gen 2:9) and Paradise (Rev 2:7)

“And every plant of the field before it was in the earth,” in Genesis 2

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was placed in the Garden of Eden where Adam could observe it (fruits of good and evil) but he was strictly forbidden to feed on it, to take the fruits into himself under pain of death, death (muwth muwth – Gen 2:17)

That Adam was told he would die on the very day he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17) – and he died after being being a mortal for 930 years (Gen 5:5). And a day to God is 1,000 years to man (Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8)

All of you may strongly disagree with the above which is plenty ok with me because whereas we are each led by the same Spirit - yet we may have differences in understanding – not unlike the differences between John, Peter, Paul, James, Thomas, etc. If each of us were to look at a seven faceted diamond from a different aspect, we may see something a bit differently - but it is still the same diamond and the same Light.

Masterful prose and well ordered thoughts . . .

Thanks.

"In the absence of time, events cannot occur. In the absence of space, things cannot exist."

OK, and thus, God does not "exist" in any way that physicists, or the rest of us for that matter, exist or can meaningfully comprehend, except through the Incarnation.

I don't think even physicists know much about what the nature of BEING will be or is apart from OUR time/space dimension. Postulations, inferences, assumptions, extrapolations are all likely to fall short.

I THINK, [MY bias] that it is reasonably safe to say that OUR PARTICULAR time/space dimension will not be the priority operant one in eternity. I think that's a very safe statement. At SOME point, it Biblically appears to be scheduled to be wrapped up and flushed or stored away or some such.

I personally don't THINK [MY personal bias] that it is BIBLICALLY SOUND to assert a lot of THEREFORE WHAT'S about time and/or space otherwsie in eternity. Not that saying so will stop anyone from postulating and pontificating about possibilities; including me.

I consider that it is AT LEAST Biblically plausible that there will be myriads of 'spheres' of 'existence' [given no better words] where BOUNDED TIME AND SPACE are uniquely and markedly different from ours.

I do NOT consider it BIBLICALLY PLAUSIBLE that there will be NO 'existence', BEING [more in the Martin Buber sense?] involving some

MOVEMENT

God's NATURE displayed IN SCRIPTURE and IN CREATION is AT LEAST

DYNAMIC!

GOD'S NATURE IS DYNAMIC !!!!PLUS!!!! a host of things--but it is NOT BIBLICALLY A HOST OF THINGS MINUS DYNAMIC.

GIVEN GOD'S UNCHANGEABLE NATURE--it is BIBLICALLY VERY SAFE TO ASSERT, postulate, infer, assume, extrapolate that the DYNAMIC aspect of GOD'S NATURE will persist throughout the countless 'ages' of eternity in at least virtually all contexts and STATES OF BEING.

1. In The Garden, God was dynamic with Adam and eve and satan.
2. On Mt Sinai God was dynamic with Moses . . .
. . .
3. On The Mercy Seat between the golden cheribim, God's PRESENCE was dynamic--vs a lump of motionless, static, dead gold or anything else.
4. In the fiery furnace, GOD was dynamic.
. . .
5. In Soddom & Gomorrah, God was dynamic.
6. With Noah, God was dynamic.
. . .
7. At the Tower of Babel, God was dynamic.
8. With King David and Solomon, God was dynamic.
. . .
9. Announcing Christ's coming to Mary and Joseph, God was dynamic.
10. Christ's birth, Life, Crucifixion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension were supremely, paragonly, maximally DYNAMIC and the fulcrum of all creation for all ages, eras, states of being; dimensions; . . . at least as far as I can Biblically infer and postulate.
. . .
11. The concluding of history as we have known it in this time/space dimension is evidently [as Biblically indicated] again to be supremely DYNAMIC.
12. The entire universe and all observable and remotely comprehensible, conceivable about the universe and all that IS--all that BE's--all that is God's overt observable, detectable expression of Himself beyond any localized manifestation of His PRESENCE--IS INCREDIBLY DYNAMIC.
. . .
13. Even some scientists are now postulating that the universe as is observable, conceivable and comprehensible may well go on infinitely expanding, 'generating' endless galaxies and 'existence.'
14. Dozens upon dozens of Heavenly visitations viewing THE THRONE and even the LIVING STONES would describe all such as EXTREMELY DYNAMIC--SUPREMELY PROFOUNDLY PREGNANT with MOVEMENT. I can't actually imagine The God of The Bible as anything less than or other than DYNAMIC AND ABUNDANTLY FULL OF MOVEMENT--pressed down, shaken together and overflowing, with MOVEMENT. 15. Even "common" structural components in Heaven such as building walls; the transparent gold streets etc. are characterized as having a LIVING DYNAMISM to them--CONSTANT MOVEMENT--IN A MYSTERIOUS SPIRITUAL, IMPOSSIBLE TO ARTICULATE SENSE.

I think folks like kosta50 and many of my denomination have an inherent aversion to conceptualizing in anything beyond fairly strict black/white; on/off binary terms.

Yet, I have observed repeatedly in Scripture and in my life and in countless lives of others that GOD IS QUITE OFTEN IF NOT MOST OFTEN, BOTH/AND.

GOD IS UNCHANGEABLE IN HIS NATURE. YET HIS NATURE IS INHERENTLY DYNAMIC--ALWAYS MOVEMENT--ALWAYS CREATING, MATURING, ENHANCING, NURTURING, MANIFESTING UNFOLDING DRAMAS AND EXPRESSIONS OF HIS GLORY; OF HIS NATURE; OF HIS LOVELINESS AND LOVE-ISHNESS. I canNOT IMAGINE He will pull in His shingle and quit such when the last saint is HEAVEN 'located.' For His Nature does not change.