'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I think that disgust with the church of that era led the reformers to throw out all the past as well.

The Reformers "threw out the past?" That's ludicrous.

It was Luther who returned the church to justification by faith in Christ alone and Calvin who returned the church to wedding the Holy Spirit intrinsically to Scripture.

In Christ the Holy Spirit is always conjoined to the Word, for "there is a permanent relation between faith and the Word." -- John Calvin 3.2.6.

These were steps back to the faith of Christ and the Apostles. Nothing new. And they were a lot more than simple disgust at indulgences and ornate cathedrals.

THE CAUSE AND RESULTS OF THE REFORMATION

"...The Reformation was the greatest religious movement for Christ since the early church. It was a revival of Biblical and New Testament theology...."

[Kolokotronis]

"Gen. 3:15.

LOL.

I do n't see anything about Jesus there."

Nor do I. At least not in the Septuagint.

[Dajjal]

You found it!!! Thank you so much!!!!!

That is such a brilliant analysis of Saint Joseph's status!!!


Now to figure out some system of notes to myself so I'll know where to look next time....

[adiaireton8]

Ah, well the Greek is pretty clearly referring to "her seed" (masculine) bruising his heel on the serpent's bruised head. The Greek doesn't seem to say that the woman will bruise her heel.

That's what the Hebrew says as well. "He [masculine] will bruise you on the head . . . "

-A8

[blue-duncan]

"And as for using the masculine áäåëöïò for brothers and sisters, well, we all say Ôïí äé'çìáò ôïõò áíèñùðïõò (Who for us men) in the Creed but we mean all humans."

That's the point. In the passage the word is used twice, once for brothers and once for sisters. If it meant cousin it would only have been used once for both sexes.

[kosta50]

The while LXX Gen 3:15 reads like this:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, you shall watch* [thrhsei, from threw, to watch, guard]] against your head, and you shalt watch against his heel."

The KJV reads:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel."

*This "discrepancy" "watch-bruise" in words is very common when LXX is directly compared to other OT versions, as the Hebrew bible contains the word "shoof," to bruise, crush, etc.

[kosta50]

The while LXX Gen 3:15 reads like this:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, you shall watch* [thrhsei, from threw, to watch, guard]] against your head, and you shalt watch against his heel."

The KJV reads:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel."

*This "discrepancy" "watch-bruise" in words is very common when LXX is directly compared to other OT versions, as the Hebrew bible contains the word "shoof," to bruise, crush, etc.

[blue-duncan]

"That's what the Hebrew says as well. "He [masculine] will bruise you on the head . . . "

Then who does "he" as in "he will bruise..." refer to?

[kosta50]

The LXX says "you" not "he."

[Dajjal]

"You have been taught that Thetokos delivered through a birth canal?"
How else? Has my education been deficient in some manner?
692 posted on 12/07/2006 by Kolokotronis

If the Child Jesus were born in the "normal" way, why would Isaiah think that qualified as a miracle possible only to God? (See Isaiah 7:14)

See my posts# 676 & 687 above.

[Dajjal]

LOL!!!

[Pyro7480]

Thank you for participating in the thread. :-)

[Diddle E. Squat]

Did the movie also misrepresent the Catholic Church's teachings on how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

[Pyro7480]

Snicker

[kosta50]

How else?

Well, the Incarnation was certainly not the "usual" way of conception. Why would the Birth be?

I was referring to St. John of Damascus who says (Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith) that Christ "passed through" the Virgin Mary, "keeping her womb closed," coming through this "Gate" without injuring "her seal."

In other words, He passed though the unopened canal the way He entered the room without opening the door. The movie subject of this thread shows Mary in labor pains.

Maybe you missed the preceding discussions. Some of them hinted as a carnal (natural) conception with the divine "seed," as much as the movie suggests natural birth. Christ was neither "conceived" nor born the "natural way." Both are miracles and paradoxes.

[adiaireton8]

It is my understanding that the "he" (of Gen 3:15) refers to Christ. But we have to remember that the word "seed" [zara`] in Hebrew has multiple senses. It can mean semen, and it can mean offspring (i.e. descendents). In Gen 3:15, it is referring to offspring. In post #532, when kosta50 says "there was no seed", I think he means that there was no semen present when Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. The phrase "If a woman have conceived seed" is a misleading translation of Lev 12:1. It means "When a woman produces seed [i.e. offspring] and bears [begets, brings forth] a child ..."

-A8

[annalex]

that doesn't explain the listing of the names of the brothers

I stand by Kolokotronis' 681. You go by vernacular meaning and studiously avoid the original usage.

The listing of the name is the broad context that you miss. Mark gives a part of that list as children of Mary Cleopas.

The fact that "adelphos" was used to indicate spiritual kinship in absence of blood relation is alone a good reason not not replace it with the specific designation like xanadelphos or syggenos when applied to disciples who are also blood relatives.

And, where is your literalism when it comes to James 2?

[spunkets]

I think your point is best made with Matt 1:25, and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus. It makes no sense that Mary became infertile.