'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[Pyro7480]

'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

By John-Henry Westen

NEW YORK, December 4, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A review of New Line Cinema's The Nativity story by Fr. Angelo Mary Geiger of the Franciscans of the Immaculate in the United States, points out that the film, which opened December 1, misinterprets scripture from a Catholic perspective.

While Fr. Geiger admits that he found the film is "in general, to be a pious and reverential presentation of the Christmas mystery." He adds however, that "not only does the movie get the Virgin Birth wrong, it thoroughly Protestantizes its portrayal of Our Lady."

In Isaiah 7:14 the Bible predicts the coming of the Messiah saying: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel." Fr. Geiger, in an video blog post, explains that the Catholic Church has taught for over 2000 years that the referenced Scripture showed that Mary would not only conceive the child miraculously, but would give birth to the child miraculously - keeping her physical virginity intact during the birth.

The film, he suggests, in portraying a natural, painful birth of Christ, thus denies the truth of the virginal and miraculous birth of Christ, which, he notes, the Fathers of the Church compared to light passing through glass without breaking it. Fr. Geiger quoted the fourth century St. Augustine on the matter saying. "That same power which brought the body of the young man through closed doors, brought the body of the infant forth from the inviolate womb of the mother."

Fr. Geiger contrasts The Nativity Story with The Passion of the Christ, noting that with the latter, Catholics and Protestants could agree to support it. He suggests, however, that the latter is "a virtual coup against Catholic Mariology".

The characterization of Mary further debases her as Fr. Geiger relates in his review. "Mary in The Nativity lacks depth and stature, and becomes the subject of a treatment on teenage psychology."

Beyond the non-miraculous birth, the biggest let-down for Catholics comes from Director Catherine Hardwicke's own words. Hardwicke explains her rationale in an interview: "We wanted her [Mary] to feel accessible to a young teenager, so she wouldn't seem so far away from their life that it had no meaning for them. I wanted them to see Mary as a girl, as a teenager at first, not perfectly pious from the very first moment. So you see Mary going through stuff with her parents where they say, 'You're going to marry this guy, and these are the rules you have to follow.' Her father is telling her that she's not to have sex with Joseph for a year-and Joseph is standing right there."

Comments Fr. Geiger, "it is rather disconcerting to see Our Blessed Mother portrayed with 'attitude;' asserting herself in a rather anachronistic rebellion against an arranged marriage, choosing her words carefully with her parents, and posing meaningful silences toward those who do not understand her."

Fr. Geiger adds that the film also contains "an overly graphic scene of St. Elizabeth giving birth," which is "just not suitable, in my opinion, for young children to view."

Despite its flaws Fr. Geiger, after viewing the film, also has some good things to say about it. "Today, one must commend any sincere attempt to put Christ back into Christmas, and this film is certainly one of them," he says. "The Nativity Story in no way compares to the masterpiece which is The Passion of the Christ, but it is at least sincere, untainted by cynicism, and a worthy effort by Hollywood to end the prejudice against Christianity in the public square."

And, in addition to a good portrait of St. Joseph, the film offers "at least one cinematic and spiritual triumph" in portraying the Visitation of Mary to St. Elizabeth. "Although the Magnificat is relegated to a kind of epilogue at the movie's end, the meeting between Mary and Elizabeth is otherwise faithful to the scriptures and quite poignant. In a separate scene, the two women experience the concurrent movement of their children in utero and share deeply in each other's joy. I can't think of another piece of celluloid that illustrates the dignity of the unborn child better than this."

See Fr. Geiger's full review here:
http://airmaria.com/

[Alamo-Girl]

And those to whom He reveals Truth know the revealed Truth.

SO very true, dear brother in Christ!

Thank you for your encouragements!

[annalex]

I received my faith from God alone. Thank you, God. Thank you, Jesus Christ. Thank you, Holy Spirit. Pity the poor castaway on some desert island. No church to save him; his soul lost forever because "he cannot believe alone."

You received your faith because somebody -- in fact, quite a few people -- put together the Holy Scripture and the Holy Tradition for you to pick what you like and decide you've got faith. Your faith did not come from the island you proclaim yourself to be.

The church is made up of all true believers. The church does not predate the word of God nor the naming of the elect. To venerate the earthly institution over the eternal sacrifice is error.

It is the historical fact that the Church exists since the Pentecost (in fact, Protestants like to start it from Adam), and the scripture followed by a few decades; the canonization did not happen till late 4th c. Christ called the Church "his", -- please reconsider "earthly".

"the church is the mother of our new birth, but not the author of our salvation"??? Say what?

We receive baptism from the Church, and the Church received the gift to give it from Christ, Who then is the Author of the salvation therein. I don't know what you do on your island.

"The church guards the memory of Christ's words"? Why not the words themselves, and not just the "memory" of them?

Because " there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."

Speaking of guarding the words themselves, can you think of any thief who stole 7 books of the word of God? I can.

"Unanimous voice"? Hardly

On the matter of faith, there is no dissenting voice in the Church. See the Canons of St. Vincent of Lerins.

"Tradition" by definition, changes with time and circumstance

Not by the Church's definition. We distinguish between the Holy Tradition that is immutable, and local and temporal traditions such as the liturgy rubrics and priest disciplines that can change because and when they should change.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

And the Church is the speaker, as previously explained.

So men's belief in Jesus Christ is an act of the organization of the church?

Men's belief in Jesus Christ depends on the knowledge of Jesus Christ, received from the Chruch who is sent by Him and intimately knows Him.

questionable addendum

But of course. The Church established the canon and discerns the authentic tradition. You on your island cannot do it even if you wanted to.

***

I praise you for reading the Catechism, and urge all who like you, are curious about the teaching of the Catholci faith do read it and see what our faith is for yourselves.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[annalex]

find some other Apostle who calls it a sacrifice?

The Catholic Mass certainly calls the Passion a sacrifice. Is your objection to the word or to the word's essence?

[annalex]

That is works-based salvation

We believe that freely undertaken works of love are necessary for our finlal justification, but we also know that these works have that effect solely because of the sacrifice of Christ. "Works-based salvation" would imply that we earn our salvation independently of Christ through overall acts of righteousness. This might be what some (pelagian) Christians believe, but it is not the Catholic belief.

[annalex]

The demand was that the price be paid.

No demand. You object to "mother of God" because some illiterate Christians might think Mary preexisted God, but you insist on the attribute of God that grossly distorts His image.

[annalex]

if God does not demand or desire sacrifice, why is one offered up

I did answer. Because we want to. Were the Eucharist demanded of us, it would be of no benefit to us.

[blue-duncan]

"I received my faith from God alone."

"You received your faith because somebody -- in fact, quite a few people -- put together the Holy Scripture and the Holy Tradition for you to pick what you like and decide you've got faith. Your faith did not come from the island you proclaim yourself to be."

John 5:38-40, "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life"

Jesus says it is through the scriptures that we have life, not tradition. To say because a Council that affirmed what the Holy Spirit vouch saved through the individual churches as the authentic Word, is somehow responsible or played a part in the salvation of those who have come to Christ through the scriptures, is like saying a librarian has a part in the writing of a book because she cataloged it. Housekeeping functions do not rise to the same level as inspired creativity (mothers excepted).

[Alamo-Girl]

Men's belief in Jesus Christ depends on the knowledge of Jesus Christ, received from the Chruch who is sent by Him and intimately knows Him.

To the contrary, the knowledge is "in" the voice of Christ Himself – the Person – not the men who speak His words, copy it or transmit it electronically. Nor is it in the pressure waves (sound), papyrus, paper or electronic media.

This is an example in support of my objection to all of the doctrines and traditions of mortal men (Mark 7:7) - in that it attempts to anthropomorphize God - by attributing the power of God to man.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. - Matt 22:29

The Spiritual revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord, is not a form of knowledge which can be obtained by reason or sensory perception.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:26-30

The second italicized phrase above is among the reasons I do not recognize any hierarchical organization of men which claims dispositive authority over the members of the body of Christ.

It is a Spiritually perilous thing for anyone to put himself between Jesus Christ and one of His sheep – as we can see in Matthew 23 and again here:

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! – Matthew 18:6-7

In no way do I doubt the good intentions of those who find themselves in a position of authority in any of the assemblies of the members of the body of Christ here on earth. The position requires exceptional humility and absolute dedication to Christ – but never can a mortal man pluck one of Christ’s sheep out of His hand.

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Rev 1:18

He did not hand those dispositive keys over to Peter, the church, the apostles or any assembly of mortal believers in this passage:

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. – Matt 16:19

[blue-duncan]

"No demand."

Even before the Law God was demanding a "ransom" for sin.

Job 33:23, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness."

[Kolokotronis]

"Job 33:23, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.""

Well, the Jews made all sorts of sacrifices didn't they...and not one of them gained them anything eternal, did it?

I must say, Protestant fixation with the OT and the Old Law strikes me as very, very strange. Christ gave The Church the sacraments for the forgiveness of our sins, most supremely the Eucharist which you reject. The sacraments, just like the OT sacrifices, aren't/weren't for God, they were/are for us, unless, apparently, one is outside The Church and therefore has no need of them.

[Kolokotronis]

"Housekeeping functions do not rise to the same level as inspired creativity (mothers excepted)."

Is it a tenet of Protestantism that the hierarchs who determined most of the canon of scripture you study were merely performing a sort of automated housekeeping project, understanding little if anything of what they were reading, persisting as they did in their "unscriptural" liturgies and ecclesial structure, venerating icons, praying to saints, etc. so that, 1100+ years later, a few Western European guys angry at the medieval Papacy would finally and at long last sort of understand what was necessary for salvation and that from that "sort of" level of understanding arises the at long last harmonious theology of 21st century Protestantism?

[kawaii]

Even if the protestants call the Church fathers utterly ignorant; if they accept the body of scripture they created (which most do) they amit that they had an undeniable presence of the Holy Spirit, something which they have never managed to establish in their churches (where any decision 'in the holy spirit' is subject to a subsequent reversal 'in the holy spirit'.

[Mad Dawg]

The Scriptures themselves are a tradition. That they and not, say, the Acts of Pilate or the Gospel of Thomas are The Holy Scriptures is tradition. Jesus talks about the "traditions of men", but some drop the "of men" part and say He condemns all tradition.

To say because a Council that affirmed what the Holy Spirit vouch saved through the individual churches as the authentic Word, is somehow responsible or played a part in the salvation of those who have come to Christ through the scriptures, is like saying a librarian has a part in the writing of a book because she cataloged it.

Two objections:
(1) It is not like saying she had a part in writing it, but it is like saying she had a part in your reading it. The Librarian came to you and said, "Here, read this. It has the stuff you need."
(2) And it's not just cataloguing. Some members of the Library staff wrote the various books. Some compiled them. Some copied and preserved them and translated them. And, as you and others say, Some said not only,"These books are what you need to read; they are reliable," but also, by implication, "Those books are NOT reliable." It was the library staff which, in response as it seems to folks like Marcion, decided that it might be good to start thinking about the idea of an authoritative collection."

The conciliar decision that these books are in and those out is part of an inspired process which got the books into the hands of those who came to Christ through them. Maybe the person who sets the plate before you didn't grow the food, but if the plate is not set before you, you will not eat it. It is the Spirit working in you which leads to your discerning and hearing the Word in the ScriptUres. It was the same Spirit which worked at critical points between the initial authorship and your reading, it seems to me.

Housekeeping may not be the pinnacle of matrimonial life, but done in love and faithfulness to the marriage and the God who blessed it, it can rise to an almost sacramental level as a bestower of Spiritual blessing for the one who does it and the for whom it is done.

And where my argument gets weak is when we hire Rent-a-maid to clean house for us, or Zondervans to print our Bibles. But I think it still stands, though weakly, even then.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

We believe that freely undertaken works of love are necessary for our final justification

But our justification has been finalized. Our justification is complete because it is an act of Christ and not of us. Jesus Christ gave Himself up on the cross and rose from the dead. We have been justified completely and forever by His sacrifice.

I realize this puts certain churches at a loss because then they can't dole out salvation according to their own dictates. But Scripture is clear that all who believe in Jesus Christ have been justified by His atonement, once for all time.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" -- Romans 3;20,28

[we]"...are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood... He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3:25,26

"He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." -- Romans 4:25

"...through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." -- Acts 13:38

"those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." -- Romans 8:30

And as a preemptive thank-you, my "Scripture generator" is working just fine. However, it's more aptly called "Open Bible; Read It." 8~)

[Kolokotronis]

Well, Blogger, here's a taste of what The Church believes the Sacrifice on The Cross was all about. I have already posted the comments of +Gregory of Sinai and +John Chrysostomos.

"The soul when it was deified descended into Hades, in order that, just as the Sun of Righteousness rose for those upon the earth, so likewise He might bring light to those who sit under the earth in darkness and shadow of death : in order that just as He brought the message of peace to those upon the earth, and of release to the prisoners, and of sight to the blind , and became to those who believed the Author of everlasting salvation and to those who did not believe a reproach of their unbelief , so He might become the same to those in Hades : That every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things in earth and things under the earth . And thus after He had freed those who had been bound for ages, straightway He rose again from the dead, shewing us the way of resurrection. +John of Damascus

" Death was struck with dismay on beholding a new visitant descend into Hades, not bound by the chains of that place. Wherefore, O porters of Hades, were ye scared at sight of Him? What was the unwonted fear that possessed your? Death fled, and his flight betrayed his cowardice. The holy prophets ran unto Him, and Moses the Lawgiver, and Abraham, and sane, and Jacob; David also, and Samuel, and Esaias, and John the Baptist, who bore witness when he asked, Art Thou He that should come, or look we for another ? All the Just were ransomed, whom death had swallowed; for it behoved tile King whom they had proclaimed, to become the redeemer of His noble heralds. Then each of the Just said, O death, where is thy victory? O grave, where is thy sting ? For the Conqueror hath redeemed us." +Cyril of Jerusalem

" And if any one believes not that death is abolished, that Hades is trodden under foot, that the chains thereof are broken, that the tyrant is bound, let him look on the martyrs disporting themselves in the presence of death, and taking up the jubilant strain of the victory of Christ. O the marvel! Since the hour when Christ despoiled Hades, men have danced in triumph over death. “O death, where is thy sting! O grave, where is thy victory? ” Hades and the devil have been despoiled, and stripped of their ancient armour, and cast out of their peculiar power. And even as Goliath had his head cut off with his own sword, so also is the devil, who has been the father of death, put to rout through death; and he finds that the selfsame thing which he was wont to use as the ready weapon of his deceit, has become the mighty instrument of his own destruction. Yea, if we may so speak, casting his hook at the Godhead, and seizing the wonted enjoyment of the baited pleasure, he is himself manifestly caught while he deems himself the captor, and discovers that in place of the man he has touched the God. By reason thereof do the martyrs leap upon the head of the dragon, and despise every species of torment. For since the second Adam has brought up the first Adam out of the deeps of Hades, as Jonah was delivered out of the whale, and has set forth him who was deceived as a citizen of heaven to the shame of the deceiver, the gates of Hades have been shut, and the gates of heaven have been opened, so as to offer an unimpeded entrance to those who rise thither in faith. In olden time Jacob beheld a ladder erected reaching to heaven, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon it. But now, having been made man for man’s sake, He who is the Friend of man has crushed with the foot of His divinity him who is the enemy of man, and has borne up the man with the hand of His Christhood, and has made the trackless ether to be trodden by the feet of man." +Gregory Thaumaturgos

You should read the NISIBENE Hymns of +Ephraim the Syrian. They are quite long, but available I believe on line. Take a look at Hymns XXXV, XXXVI, LIII, LXIII, LXVI and LXVIII.

In Hymn XXXVI, Death rants at Christ about his power over the earth and mankind. Then this:

Death ended his speech of derision: and the voice of our Lord sounded into Hell, and He cried aloud and burst the graves one by one. Tremblings took hold on Death; Hell that never of old had been lighted up, into it there flashed splendours, from the Watchers who entered in and brought out the dead to meet Him, who was dead and gives life to all. The dead came forth, and the living were ashamed, they who thought that they had conquered the Life Giver of all.
12. But who gave me the day of Moses, (said Death) who made a feast for me? For that lamb that was slain in Egypt gave me, from every house the first fruit: heaps and heaps of the first born, at the gate of Hell he piled me them. But this Lamb of the festival, has robbed Hell; of the dead He has taken title and carried them off from me. That lamb filled the graves for me; but this has emptied the graves that were full.
The death of Jesus to me is a torment; I prefer for myself His life rather than His death. This is the Dead whose death (lo!) is hateful to me; in the death of all men else I rejoice, but His Death, even His, I detest; that He may come back to life I hope. While He was living He brought to life and restored three that were dead; but now by His death, at the gate of Hell they have trampled on me, the dead who have come to life, whom I was going to shut in.
14. I will haste and will close the gates of Hell, before this Dead, Whose death has spoiled me. Whoso hears will wonder at my humiliation, that by a dead man who is without I am overcome. All the dead seek to go forth, but this one presses to enter in. A medicine of life has entered into Hell, and has restored life to its dead. Who then has brought in and hidden from me, that living fire wherein have reposed, the cold and dark recesses of Hell?"

And this final line, spoken by Death to Christ and mortals, from Hymn LXVIII:

"Ye shall have life from the dead, O ye mortals, and I who am bereft shall be bereft in the midst of Sheol.—32. Let praise ascend from all to Thee Who quickenest all, and from every quarter gatherest the dust of Adam!"

The ransom paid by Christ was that "demanded" by Death from God. God didn't demand the sacrifice of His Son, but He was willing to allow it and directed His Son to, in perfect obedience, undergo death. And God so loved us that He sent His Son to "pay" that ransom. Through sin, no creation of God but of man, Death was awakened and we became its willing bondsmen, bondsmen whose only hope of release lay in God. The "ransom", of course, turned out to be a fraud on Death because by His death, Christ trampled Death and brought Life to those in the tombs. Christ died on The Cross not because God demanded a bloody satisfaction because we had offended Him (a notion I have always found vaguely pagan), but rather because Death in its presumption and delusions, sought it as its ultimate triumph. God in His love for us gave Death what Death thought it wanted and thereby destroyed it, freeing mankind.

This, Blogger, is what The Church believes and has always and everywhere believed. Is it "blood atonement"? Well, yes, in a sense, since Christ died because we, through sin, had become bondsmen of Death, not creatures in the image and likeness of God as we were created to be. As is prayed in the Latin Mass, "Dying, You destroyed our death; Rising You restored our Life."

[Alamo-Girl]

Rats, I should have clarified my remarks at post 5888.

In the passage, John 10:26-30, the ones Christ was addressing were physically hearing Him. Their sensory perception and minds were working and Christ was speaking. But they were not spiritually hearing Him, because they were not of His sheep.

The “knowing” of Jesus Christ occurs in the spirit, when His sheep hear his “voice” then Christ “knows” them. Therein is the direct Spiritual revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord!

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

This power of God cannot be usurped or simulated by any man and any claims to the contrary I aver is a futile attempt to ‘anthropomorphize God.’

The knowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord can only come from Him. Thus it is the primary Spiritual "test:"

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: - 1 John 4:1-2

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Even before the Law God was demanding a "ransom" for sin.

Amen.

Scripture generator says...

"For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -- Isaiah 53:2-12

And let's not forget Christ was not taken by surprise, nor did He not commit suicide. He willingly ("for the joy that was set before Him") was put to death because God ordained Christ's sacrifice as the means to secure the salvation of His children. If He was really "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," then all history, all life on this planet, every atom in the universe, exists to prove that true.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2: Corinthians 5:21

Who actively and knowingly made Christ to be sin? God actively and knowingly made Christ to be sin so that we could stand before Him without it.

[Blogger]

You say "your church" as if it is just a building that made the interpretations. They are men, who after much study and debate, etc., came to a conclusion and defined our doctrine. They did this through prayer and with the Holy Spirit. How is this any different from what you are doing?

The "Church" I am referring to is not a building. In terms of Catholicism, it is a hierarchical structure centered in Rome. This structure has defined doctrine for Catholics since the 300s (prior to this, Roman primacy was not a certain matter, and a strong argument can be made that it does not have strong support even today). To be considered good Christians, a person must agree with the church on the doctrines the church defines. One is not permitted to come up with any contrary opinion on doctrine from that of the church than that which the church set up (See the Council of Trent concerning this). For years, you weren't even permitted to print something contrary to the official doctrine of the church. (Trent) Such though flies directly in the face of Scripture. Paul did not hesitate to challenge Peter when Peter was wrong on an issue. And Paul was thrilled to have the Bereans checking what He said in comparison to the record of Scripture.

NEVER in Scripture is it said that you should take what your church leadership says blindly without checking it out yourself to make sure that they are on base - for you see, we are ALL human beings(including Church leadership) We make mistakes, we have faulty understanding, and frankly a lot are wolves and not of Christ's fold. The Scriptural principle is to test the spirits to see if they are from God.( 1 John 4:1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.)

How do we do this? Not by looking to other humans. The only sure way is by going to God's Word. By being grounded in the Word of God we will not fall to deceivers. This is something that God has warned against since the beginning of time. We should take heed and listen to it.

Jeremiah 29:8For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them," declares the LORD.

1 Timothy 4 Instructions to Timothy 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

2 Peter 2: 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Matthew 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ left us His Word as our Guide. Repeatedly, we are told to search the Scriptures. Repeatedly we are warned that deceivers will come so they must be tested to see if they are genuine. The way we do this is through Scripture.

If what the Catholic church teaches came strictly from men of God getting together in prayer and being led by the Holy Spirit in the matters of Scripture - why is it that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is so detestable to the Catholic church? If the doctrines came from Scripture - we should all be able to find them there and everyone should be happy. Either these people are puffed up in themselves to believe that they are the ONLY ones that God can lead through His Word, or a great many of the doctrines do not originate from His Word at all. When such doctrines are held up as the be all and end all of whether or not you are in good standing with God- especially when those doctrines contradict Scripture - there is a problem.

Samiam. I do not want you to believe a word I say on my own. I don't want you to believe a word anyone says. I encourage you to test what is said with Scripture and see if these things are so.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

But they were not spiritually hearing Him, because they were not of His sheep. The “knowing” of Jesus Christ occurs in the spirit, when His sheep hear his “voice” then Christ “knows” them. Therein is the direct Spiritual revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord!

Amen!

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" -- John 10:27

His sheep follow Him because He knows them, because He has loved them from before the foundation fo the world.

[Alamo-Girl]

Exactly! Praise God! Marantha, Jesus!