Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children
By John-Henry Westen
NEW YORK, December 4, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A review of New Line Cinema's The Nativity story by Fr. Angelo Mary Geiger of the Franciscans of the Immaculate in the United States, points out that the film, which opened December 1, misinterprets scripture from a Catholic perspective.
While Fr. Geiger admits that he found the film is "in general, to be a pious and reverential presentation of the Christmas mystery." He adds however, that "not only does the movie get the Virgin Birth wrong, it thoroughly Protestantizes its portrayal of Our Lady."
In Isaiah 7:14 the Bible predicts the coming of the Messiah saying: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel." Fr. Geiger, in an video blog post, explains that the Catholic Church has taught for over 2000 years that the referenced Scripture showed that Mary would not only conceive the child miraculously, but would give birth to the child miraculously - keeping her physical virginity intact during the birth.
The film, he suggests, in portraying a natural, painful birth of Christ, thus denies the truth of the virginal and miraculous birth of Christ, which, he notes, the Fathers of the Church compared to light passing through glass without breaking it. Fr. Geiger quoted the fourth century St. Augustine on the matter saying. "That same power which brought the body of the young man through closed doors, brought the body of the infant forth from the inviolate womb of the mother."
Fr. Geiger contrasts The Nativity Story with The Passion of the Christ, noting that with the latter, Catholics and Protestants could agree to support it. He suggests, however, that the latter is "a virtual coup against Catholic Mariology".
The characterization of Mary further debases her as Fr. Geiger relates in his review. "Mary in The Nativity lacks depth and stature, and becomes the subject of a treatment on teenage psychology."
Beyond the non-miraculous birth, the biggest let-down for Catholics comes from Director Catherine Hardwicke's own words. Hardwicke explains her rationale in an interview: "We wanted her [Mary] to feel accessible to a young teenager, so she wouldn't seem so far away from their life that it had no meaning for them. I wanted them to see Mary as a girl, as a teenager at first, not perfectly pious from the very first moment. So you see Mary going through stuff with her parents where they say, 'You're going to marry this guy, and these are the rules you have to follow.' Her father is telling her that she's not to have sex with Joseph for a year-and Joseph is standing right there."
Comments Fr. Geiger, "it is rather disconcerting to see Our Blessed Mother portrayed with 'attitude;' asserting herself in a rather anachronistic rebellion against an arranged marriage, choosing her words carefully with her parents, and posing meaningful silences toward those who do not understand her."
Fr. Geiger adds that the film also contains "an overly graphic scene of St. Elizabeth giving birth," which is "just not suitable, in my opinion, for young children to view."
Despite its flaws Fr. Geiger, after viewing the film, also has some good things to say about it. "Today, one must commend any sincere attempt to put Christ back into Christmas, and this film is certainly one of them," he says. "The Nativity Story in no way compares to the masterpiece which is The Passion of the Christ, but it is at least sincere, untainted by cynicism, and a worthy effort by Hollywood to end the prejudice against Christianity in the public square."
And, in addition to a good portrait of St. Joseph, the film offers "at least one cinematic and spiritual triumph" in portraying the Visitation of Mary to St. Elizabeth. "Although the Magnificat is relegated to a kind of epilogue at the movie's end, the meeting between Mary and Elizabeth is otherwise faithful to the scriptures and quite poignant. In a separate scene, the two women experience the concurrent movement of their children in utero and share deeply in each other's joy. I can't think of another piece of celluloid that illustrates the dignity of the unborn child better than this."
See Fr. Geiger's full review here:
http://airmaria.com/
"Prayers in Scripture are always to God unless you are of a pagan religion."
Well, we're not pagans. And prayers to saints are something the Church has done from the beginning...again, like having bishops, from the Apostolic age if one wants to include the veneration of relics. I sincerely doubt we are wrong. If we were, well most people who are Orthodox now would long since have been Mohammedans. Our Faith sustained us through a centuries long and continuing Mohammedan oppression. If we were pagans, we'd have converted hundreds of years ago, but The Church survives. Protestantism, on the other hand, can't seem to survive the modern age.
We don't pray to saints. We ask them to pray for us.
To the instances of Mariolatry: Some Protestants have taken protest to the point of becoming Unitarians. Some have taken good old sola scriptura to very strange places indeed, cf. Jehovah's Witnesses. Long ago and in another country I offered the principle "Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds," by which I mean to say that a good thing's being able to be perverted doesn't necessarily mean it's not a good thing. And just for the sake of orneriness, I'll dispute "a lot" on the grounds that if we'll allow excessive language becaue of affectionate devotion then it's REALLY hard to tell from appearances whose excessive in their intentions. If you'd heard some of the things I said to my daughter, when she was little, you'd think I worshipped her.
To praying to the dead: He is not God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him. (formulaic but I hope you get where I'm going.)
To the time spent in Prayer. To each, I wouldn't know. I know I spend maybe 15-20 minutes each day in a Rosary and less time than that on my "office" (which, since I rejoice in my lay status, is kind of informal -- okay, REALLY informal -- but involves Scripture, especially Psalms - I love the Psalms - and reading some wise and holy people). But, this may sound weird, I don't think of/experience the Rosary as devoted to Mary exclusively. I am WAY more into the mysteries.
oOr example, I MAY occasionally think about what it was like for Mary to being Jesus to the temple for the Presentation -- and remember what it was like bringing my child to Church for the Thanksgiving after childbirth -- but I more often think about what it is like for the God for whose worship the temple was built to enter it in disguise, how the awesome God, before whom we would fall to our faces and our tongues cleave at least temporarily to the rooves of our mouths, could, so to speak, fit inside a "little, bitty baby" and so inside a little bitty temple. As in the Mass I find myself wondering how the whole thing doesn't splinter and blow apart in fragments or burn as Spike does at the end of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
And actually, I am going to more weekday Masses now, so I bet the formally intended towrd the Holy Trinity is statistically stomping the time spent in Rosaries. (This'll bug you, it bugs me: I have a feeling that there's a connection between my Rosarying and my desire to make the 35 minute 20 mile one way drive to St Tom's for weekday Mass.)
Bible and Early Church: Oh, let's just open up another thread devoted to things Catholics and Protestants can say to each other by the numbers. Like the old joke about jokes. As the Orthodox brethren have said very well in this thread, our attitude toward Scripture and tradtion and such is really different from the Protestant attitude and more, how shall I say, organic. You know how that one goes.
Orthodox may not. Catholics do and more - particularly in regards to Mary.
The Bible doesn't instruct us anywhere to talk to people who have gone to heaven.
Where is there evidence that there was prayers to saints or veneration of icons in the Apostolic age?
Have a nice day.
Cya MD.
The bible has a lot more to say about prayer than that. One instruction that comes to mind is that against vain repetition, like the heathen.
Trouble is with being 'saved' before being judged. And we shall be judged according to what we have done. If we are saved based on what we have done, then we will be saved by God's mercy alone because there is nothing we could possibly do to earn our salvation. However, it is important to God what we do.
Last moment repentance (the 'thief trick') will not work if you have been baptized and a christian all your life. Non-Christians can repent at the last moment; we have no excuse.
We cannot be saved by works, but our works will be the basis of our judgment. So, shed that cozy, don't-worry-be-happy macarena attitude dear protestant brothers, and get to work!
There is no salvation before judgment. That is another feel-good protestant innovation. Only after judgment will we be either saved or condemned; only then will we have a ticket to heaven or hell. But which ticket we get will have a lot to do with what we have done, for we shall be judged on it and while none of us deserve salvation, some will receive it for no other reason that God's incredible mercy.
But the Bible says the Kingdom is in our hearts. If God abides in us, certainbly His saints abide in us too. As +John the Forerunner (Baptist) says "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand [near]" – all you have to do is reach for it, Blogger! Don't look up, look inside!
Bu there is only one complete prayer given. Christ did not say "this is one of the prayers your should pray..." He said 'this is how,/i> you should rpay.'
There are many other examples of prayer in the bible, especially John 17. Since we are warned against vain repetitions and since the other prayers are not clones of the "sample" prayer it pretty much shows that we are not to repeat the "sample prayer" as written. That shows that the sample prayer is an outline of topics. What's really interesting is that the Lord warns against verbosity since God already knows what we need before we ask.
All of these things really make vain the idea of asking dead people to pray for us. The is the epitome of vain and repititious. Not to mention there is zero scriptural precedent for it.
Col..Praying withal for us also, that God may open unto us a door of speech to speak the mystery of Christ (for which also I am bound;)
2 Thess... Wherefore also we pray always for you; that our God would make you worthy of his vocation, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness and the work of faith in power;
Eph..By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints:
Apoc 5...And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:
Tob 12...When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Angel presents Tobit & Sarah's prayer to God)
MK...And there appeared to them Elias with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. (Ut oh. Jesus was speaking with the dead)
Apoc 6....And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (hmm, dead saints pleading with God)
Heb 12....And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
Luke 16.. There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. (a dead rich man tries to intercede for his brothers)
*So, kosta, what IS your necromantic self up to :)
I mean, it is almost as if you take seriously the Communion of Saints part of the Creed.
Πιστεύω εις το Πνυμα το `Αγιον, αγίαν καθολικην εκκλησίαν, αγίων κοινωνίαν, άφεσιν αμαρτιων, σαρκος ανάστασιν, ξωήν αιώνιον. Αμήν.
I am sure those who are ideologically opposed to that truth are silent during this part of the Apostles Creed :)
Romans 8...Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword? (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tell me what the Catholic Church teaches, not what some Catholics practice on thier own. Being Catholic or Orthodox, or Protestant for that matter doesn't mean one knows his faith.
Incoming! ;-)
Hey, here's a thought: ( I actually have them sometimes.)
I would say that "prayer" is an equivocal word. Contemplation, meditation, and particular approaches to and experiences with Scripture are all called "prayer". And what they have in common is that we hold them to be interactions with God Himself.
But the basic meaning of the word has to do merely with making a request. In my former life as a deputy I saw the word in formal legal documents - and the only invocations of God that those inspired were usually blasphemous.
The word "bead" comes from the word "bid". And "bid" is just another word for "ask". So there is a kind of continuum or, as I say, equivocation that goes from "asking in general" through (asking folks in heaven) and (asking angels), to "asking God" and finally" communicating in other ways with God". When we "pray" to the Saints, we're USUALLY just asking them to pray for us or thanking them for their intercession. So I would venture that the knuckle of the disagreement is communication with "those who have gone before".
Where are you guys on praying to angels? I guess we're all over the concept of being surrounded with a great cloud of witnesses. We can't go up in the stands until invited, but we can call to them and hear them call to us. I think OUR side would be "Asking is asking, thanking is thanking, complimenting is complimenting whether the person has died yet and lives again or is still waiting to die." And YOUR side is, "No, it isn't, or they aren't, either. It is essentially different once the person on the other end of the phone has died (not counting Jesus)."
So now we look at why and whether there's a difference:
And my first effort is an attempt at a reductio, thus: To say that they're different is to imply a kind of gnostic breach, a metaphysical great gulf fixed between us and heaven. But heaven is where God is, and God is everywhere, therefore He is here, therefore heaven is here.
I recognize that this is not conclusive. I'm just putting it out there.
(My secret goal is to see if we can make it to 5,000)
If you are a Christian you would not call dead people dead. Saints are in heaven; they have seen God. The bible tells us that the kingdom of heaven inside of us, in our Christian hearts, that God abides in us, and where God is His saints are too.
There is no reason whatsoever why we cannot ask the saints to pray for us. No one is forcing you to do so, but if it is "logic" that drives your statements, there is nothing logical about the faith. In fact, to non-believers it appears rather silly and imagianry.
1430. Why pray to Saints? Is it not better to pray to God direct?
Net always. The same answer applies here as in the case of prayers to the Virgin Mary, who after all is the greatest of the Saints. God may wish to give certain favors through the intercession of some given Saint. In such a case, it is better to seek the intercession of that Saint as God wishes. I can decide to give you a gift myself, or to do so through a friend. In the latter case you do me greater honor by accepting it from my friend than by refusing my way of giving it to you, and insolently demanding it directly from myself in person.
1431. I pray that you may see the futility of praying to Saints who can do nothing for you. Christ is the only mediator.
By your very prayer you are attempting to mediate between God and myself on my behalf. I do not criticize the principle of praying for others. I believe in that. But I do criticize your praying for me in violation of your own principles. If the Saints cannot be mediators by praying for me, nor can you. Your prayers would be futile; they could do nothing for me; and you would be wasting your time.
1432. The Lord's Prayer shows that God Himself hears our prayers.
Correct. And He hears the prayers we address to the Saints, and their prayers also on our behalf. And those prayers, added to our own, give us additional claims to be heard by God in a favorable way.
1433. When did God tell anyone to pray to human beings?
When the Catholic Church teaches us that prayer to the Saints is right and useful, it is God teaching us that truth through His Church. But the doctrine is clearly enough indicated in Scripture also. I have mentioned Abraham's prayer for Sodom. The Jews asked Moses to go to speak to God on their behalf. God Himself said to Eliphaz, the Themanite, "My wrath is kindled against thee . . . but my servant Job shall pray for you. His face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you." Job XLII., 8. Earlier in that same book we read, "Call now if there will be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the Saints." V., 1. His enemies meant that Job was too wicked to be heard, but they knew that it was lawful to invoke the Saints. Long after the death of Jeremiah, Onias said of that prophet, "This is the lover of his brethren and of the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city; Jeremiah, the prophet of God." 2 Mach. XV., 14. St. James says that "the prayer of a just man availeth much." If his prayer is valuable, it is worth while to ask his prayers. If you say, "Yes. That is all right whilst a man is still in this life and on earth," I ask whether you think he has less power when in heaven with God? In Rev. VIII., 4, St. John says that he saw "the prayers of the Saints ascending up before God from the hand of an angel." If I can ask my own mother to pray for me whilst she is still in this life, surely I can do so when she is with God! She does not know less when she rejoices in the Vision of God; she has not less interest in me; and she is not less charitably disposed towards me then. We Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints, and are in communion with them. But for you the doctrine of the Apostles Creed, "I believe in the Communion of Saints," must be a meaningless formula. Christ is not particularly honored by our ignoring those who loved and served Him best, and whom He loves so much.
*Little wonder that the 16th Century Satan's Mini-Me's excised certain books from the Bible. The had to get rid of the Divine Evidence they were lying to their followers
As my mother's priest told her when my grandmother passed away: "Are you are believer?" My mother answered "Yes, I am." The priest then put his arm around her shoulder and said "Then you know that this life is a comma, and not a full stop."
Christianity is a religion of life, not death. As Kolo's tagline reads (He trempled death by death).
That is a very unscriptural statement. At His mother's request Jesus changed water into wine at Cana, though He had said, "My time is not yet come." St. James tells us that "the prayer of a just man availeth much." Ja. V., 16. How much more the prayer of Mary!
1412. Does the Bible sanction such prayers to Mary?
Yes. All through the Bible you will find God conferring favors through the prayers of others. In the Old Testament we read of the prayers of Abraham, Moses, and of the various prophets. In the New Testament, St. James tells us to "pray for one another," in the text I have just quoted. If we must always pray directly to God and may not ask the prayers of others, why did St. Paul write to the Thessalonians, "Pray for us that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men?" 2 Thess. III., 2. Why did he not ask that directly of God, instead of asking the prayers of the Thessalonians? Or would you be more scriptural than the New Testament itself?
1413. There is but one mediator; there is no place for Mary.
Christ is the principal mediator in His own right. Mary is a secondary mediatrix, through, with, and in Christ. Without Him she would have no power, and therefore He is the source of all mediation with God on behalf of men.
1414. How can you blend the mediation of others with that of Christ?
It follows from the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Remember that, by Baptism, every Christian is incorporated with Christ. St. Paul says, "Christ is the head; ye are the members." So close is this union that Christ says, "Whoever gives you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to me; amen, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward." Mk. IX., 40. Every Christian is Christ in a most intimate way. St. Paul tells us that if a baptized person sins, he takes the members of Christ and makes them the members of iniquity! When that same St. Paul was persecuting the Christians before his conversion, Christ appeared to him and said, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest Thou Me?" He did not say, "Why persecutest thou My disciples?" He could equally say, when we pray to Mary or to the saints, "What asketh thou of Me?" When we honor Our Lady or the Saints, we honor, not their own merely human and created nature, but we honor Christ in them according to the doctrine of Scripture. The Catholic Church is the only completely scriptural Church.
1415. Do Catholics believe that Mary is omnipotent?
No. God alone is omnipotent. But through Mary we have access to the omnipotence of God.
1416. How do you know that Mary hears you?
The Catholic Church guarantees that, and she is here to tell us the truth about such things in the name of Christ and with His authority. Reason also assures us that, as she could know our prayers in this life and pray for us in turn, so she can do so in the more perfect state in heaven. Finally experience proves it, for she has manifested her power in thousands of concrete instances in answer to prayer.
You are changing the subject and challenging my faith rather than even discussing the issue. NO WHERE in the bible does anyone bow his head or otherwise and ask a dead person, and we know who they are, to pray for them.
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