'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

Forest Keeper, as far as the severely mentally handicapped, we simply don't know what their full capacity is. If faith is the gift we know it to be, the God who gives faith could give the measure of faith (in whatever form it is needed) to one who has no discernable cognitive abilities. Look at infants and the words of David, Jeremiah, and the gospels concerning John the Baptist. John was clearly God's elect. John leaped in his mother's womb at the presence of the infant Christ (in his own mother's womb). We would probably have said that such faith wasn't possible for one so young. Now, after studying the issue, I leave it to God's providence in full and do not discount the possibility.

I'm styaing away form active participation on the thread. I HTINK what I was saying is that we both say that there's a kind of cumulative or building effec tin good works" I pray today, it makes it more likely, less of a,"Oh goodness, I guess I'd better go pray," thing to pray tomorrow. And I think that's about all that's important about our use of the word "merit". A good work IS one step in establishing a good habit. And a good habit is a good thing. The fadt that we realize that every important aspect of it is gift, does not take away from the good habit being a kind of "Reward" for doing a chunk of good works (of a particular kind.) And Even it is a step on the way of salvation, and in that sense salvific.

But I can't imagine any serious Catholic, IQ above 110, having spent more than a year or so thinking and praying about it and having had his personal wake-up call from God, every thinking that he "deserved" to be saved because of good stuff he'd done.

"We are not robots, but we did need His direct intervention or we would not have come. Nobody would."

What have I misunderstood? Of course you needed His direct intervention. The elect got that when they were "elected". I find it hard to say that the damned need His direct intervention, at least in a subjective sense. Who subjectively needs to be created so as to simply spend an eternity in torment? But I agree that from an objective standpoint, the damned didn't create themselves and certainly their damnation is on account of God in your system.

"With the belief system that you have laid out, I could come and say how could anyone call salvation unmerited? How could anyone boast only in God but not in themselves even MORE than God? And, if one ounce of our "righteousness" merited even the least bit of God's salvific favor, what kind of a brute beast is he for sending His own Son to die for us if we could "have the potential" of doing salvific works for ourselves."

How so? The elect in your system have absolutely nothing to do with their election. It is 100% of God before all ages. Under such circumstances of course they have nothing to boast about, but if they do boast, they are still the elect, they can no more do anything to become "unelect" than the could to become elect, unless being the elect they don't boast, right? And the damned are still damned by God from all eternity. So again, why read scripture? It has nothing to teach the elect because they need no teaching and teaching will profit the damned nothing.

"Kolo. I see very little difference substantively with a lot of the teaching on this thread and the teaching of Islam."

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing.

"In both systems, in the the end, it is dependent upon man meriting, through good works, God's favor -...."

Well that certainly isn't Orthodoxy, as I have explained many, many times.

"...and even in that dying breath, noone has assurance that God has saved them and that they are heading to heaven."

That is subjectively Orthodox. We are all sinners and hopefully trust in God's mercy.

"Rather, they hope that their goodness was good enough."

Change the word "goodness" to "similitude to Christ" and that's both subjectively and objectively Orthodox. And in Orthodoxy, living according to the scriptures does have meaning.

I might add that I do get a kick out of Western Christians presuming to lecture the Orthodox, or any Eastern Christian for that matter, about Mohammedanism. We have, shall we say, rather more experience with it up close and personal than you guys do.

"The Hebrew word for God's justice is not a forensic term."

It is a forensic term in Judaism. From a Jewish encyclopedia:

"The ten days starting with Rosh Hashanah and ending with Yom Kippur are commonly known as the Days of Awe (Yamim Noraim) or the Days of Repentance. This is a time for serious introspection, a time to consider the sins of the previous year and repent before Yom Kippur.

One of the ongoing themes of the Days of Awe is the concept that G-d has "books" that he writes our names in, writing down who will live and who will die, who will have a good life and who will have a bad life, for the next year. These books are written in on Rosh Hashanah, but our actions during the Days of Awe can alter G-d's decree. The actions that change the decree are "teshuvah, tefilah and tzedakah," repentance, prayer, good deeds (usually, charity). These "books" are sealed on Yom Kippur. This concept of writing in books is the source of the common greeting during this time is "May you be inscribed and sealed for a good year." ".

God keeps books and righteousness (tzedakah)can alter the negative writing in the book in order to have a good year. The writing is judgement of the life lived the past year.

Isaiah equates righteousness with judgment, Isa. 28:17, "Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.", but then he goes on to say all of our righteousness is less than worthless, preparing the way for the righteousness that Jesus brings on our behalf by satisfying the righteousness for our sin. Isa. 64:6, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

"We are not robots, but we did need His direct intervention or we would not have come. Nobody would." What have I misunderstood? A lot about the sovereignty and grace of God

Of course you needed His direct intervention. The elect got that when they were "elected". I find it hard to say that the damned need His direct intervention, at least in a subjective sense. Who subjectively needs to be created so as to simply spend an eternity in torment? But I agree that from an objective standpoint, the damned didn't create themselves and certainly their damnation is on account of God in your system.
Romans 9:18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

"With the belief system that you have laid out, I could come and say how could anyone call salvation unmerited? How could anyone boast only in God but not in themselves even MORE than God? And, if one ounce of our "righteousness" merited even the least bit of God's salvific favor, what kind of a brute beast is he for sending His own Son to die for us if we could "have the potential" of doing salvific works for ourselves."

How so?

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The elect in your system have absolutely nothing to do with their election. It is 100% of God before all ages.
Amen!

Under such circumstances of course they have nothing to boast about, but if they do boast, they are still the elect, they can no more do anything to become "unelect" than the could to become elect, unless being the elect they don't boast, right?
Sure. And the damned are still damned by God from all eternity.
No. They are damned by their own actions. God does not hold them back. They refuse to come.

So again, why read scripture? It has nothing to teach the elect because they need no teaching and teaching will profit the damned nothing.
Says you. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

"In both systems, in the the end, it is dependent upon man meriting, through good works, God's favor -...."

Well that certainly isn't Orthodoxy, as I have explained many, many times. Yes, but by statements like the following, We are all sinners and hopefully trust in God's mercy. you betray the notion. If we are all sinners and have no assurance of God's mercy when we die, then somehow, we have merited God's mercy. IOW, our works are salvific, hopefully, if God is pleased enough with them and if we have become Christ-like "enough" for his liking. This is unbiblical, Kolo.

"Rather, they hope that their goodness was good enough."

Change the word "goodness" to "similitude to Christ" and that's both subjectively and objectively Orthodox. And in Orthodoxy, living according to the scriptures does have meaning.
Either rendering, Kolo, it is not Scriptural. Our goodness, our similitude to Christ is not what saves for in this life we will ALWAYS be sinners. God can not be in the presence of Sin. He can not have fellowship with those He still counts as sinful. That's why He sent Jesus. Now, the sacrifice of Christ for our sins -- THAT was enough. And when it was done, He cried it is FINISHED! No more needed to be done to reconcile man with God. It was enough.

I might add that I do get a kick out of Western Christians presuming to lecture the Orthodox, or any Eastern Christian for that matter, about Mohammedanism. We have, shall we say, rather more experience with it up close and personal than you guys do.
Well, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience with Islamic militants. What year, month, day did you personally gain so much more experience with them than the rest of us on this thread? I have some friends who are smack dab in the middle of a closed country dealing with Islam every day. Is this the type experience that you personally have endured? Some of my ancestors were also killed during the crusades. Certainly they had quite the experience with Islam. Experience with Islam is certainly not a good thing. But it has been shared by many.

Ping to above post

If anything, demonology among the Jews was something the lower (common) classes believed, but Judaism never taught, so the mention of scribes in the NT is somewhat interesting from that point of view. The Jewish Encyclopedia writes more on this.

In Talmud and Mishna the popular demonology was accepted by the end of the 3rd century AD.

Your arguments are with Judaism. Read any Jewish sources, modern or ancient, and you will find that Satan has no power of his own but must obtain permission from God. Thus, in Judaism, Satan receives his orders from God.

The concept of devil, prince of demons, etc. being synonymous with Satan is first encountered in "Apocrypha" and from there, through the use of Septuagint as Scripture by the Apostles, it finds its place in the New Testament.

"Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

And if the elect were to do that, what happens? Unelection? Or is the answer the elect wouldn't do that? And the damned, do they get more damned?

K "And the damned are still damned by God from all eternity."

B "No. They are damned by their own actions. God does not hold them back. They refuse to come."

Whoa, wait a minute. If the elect are always elect and can't be snatched or fall from God's hands, then the damned must be damned from all ages. God decided that. They don't refuse to come. In your system, God already rejected them. What are they refusing? God gives them nothing but eternal torment.

"Says you. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Why do the elect need this, to avoid being unelected?

"If we are all sinners and have no assurance of God's mercy when we die, then somehow, we have merited God's mercy."

Why does this follow?

"and if we have become Christ-like "enough" for his liking. This is unbiblical, Kolo."

Not at all, B. God created man in His image and likeness. The the potential to attain, through a response to God's grace, that likeness was lost in the Fall. Through the Incarnation, that potential to respond was restored. Our created purpose is to become like God. We either do or we don't. because we are all sinners we likely will attain very little similitude to Christ. Our only hope is that God will be merciful.

"And when it was done, He cried it is FINISHED! No more needed to be done to reconcile man with God. It was enough."

God's blood lust was satiated, B?

"Well, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience with Islamic militants. What year, month, day did you personally gain so much more experience with them than the rest of us on this thread?"

Most recently in the late 90s, but going back to the 70s in Saudi, in Egypt, in Turkey, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Thailand. And as you know, I come from a culture which lived under Mohammedan oppression for 500 years. No brand of Protestantism ever faced even a few years of dhimmitude. Orthodoxy has spent the past 500+ years living with it. To this day the Protestant cultures of the West throw Orthodox Christians and Eastern Christians in communion with Rome to the Mohammedan wolves. We're doing it in Lebanon, we're doing it in the Palestinian territories, we're doing it in Egypt, we're doing it in Saudi, we're doing it in Iraq and we're doing it in Kosovo. Is this because Protestants are the elect and the rest of us damned, or is it because the Protestant Reformation and its child the Enlightenment leads you to a better understanding of the Mohammedan world than your fellow Christians who live or lived with it and thus the West's active participation in the destruction of Orthodox and Eastern Christianity in places like Kosovo or Iraq or the disregard shown the same evil throughout No. Africa and the Middle East is OK because you guys know better?

I envy you that experience. We, in the world, lose sight of the sacred way of living as they live. Sigh.

One of my personal prayers is that there would be less of Mary and more of Christ.

Prayers of the saints means folk like you and me, annalex. WE are God's saints when we receive Jesus Christ into our lives. The early saints were just common folk who prayed to God and God heard them. They weren't canonized people, they were ordinary and everyday people who believed God.

Darn...

Your interpretations of those scriptures, especially the one about the Church, just isn't right, annalex. The CHURCH is not a denomination or a building. It is the body of believers. WE are His church, annalex. There IS one true church and it's those of us who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and live according to His precepts. No Pope is infallible, no church is infallible. Sorry. You are just plain wrong about that.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

And if the elect were to do that, what happens? Unelection? Or is the answer the elect wouldn't do that? And the damned, do they get more damned?
The message is concerning the Judaizers who were trying to frustrate the grace of God by adding works to salvation. Paul was calling what they were doing for what it was. The elect do not add works to their salvation and are saved by the grace of God alone. So therefore, the hypothetical is something that would not happen.

K "And the damned are still damned by God from all eternity."

B "No. They are damned by their own actions. God does not hold them back. They refuse to come."

Whoa, wait a minute. If the elect are always elect and can't be snatched or fall from God's hands, then the damned must be damned from all ages. God decided that. They don't refuse to come. In your system, God already rejected them. What are they refusing? God gives them nothing but eternal torment.
You are incorrect. In "my system" which frankly, I'm getting a little tired of it being called for "my system" is held by Reformed Christians everywhere. I didn't make it up. I have spent many many many years studying Scripture and have seen it clearly within Scripture. So, it is not "my system" any more than Orthodoxy is "your system".

Anyway, it is a mischaracterization of what I have already explained concerning Reformed theology. God knew that man would rebel. He allowed the rebellion. He did not force the rebellion. He gave free will to Adam and Eve. They chose, freely, to sin. Knowing this from all eternity God also knew that all of Adam and Eve's proginy would refuse to come to Him. All of them. Romans 3 is clear. None seeks God. So, he chose, because He is GOD and can do that, to choose many to salvation. The rest, He allowed to exist and go THEIR OWN WAY - not because He didn't choose them but because of their own choice. God does not OWE mercy. Yet, in His design of things He allows the ungodly to exist to teach us about sin, wrath, holiness, and mercy.

"Says you. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Why do the elect need this, to avoid being unelected?
No. To fulfill God's purpose for us. Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

"If we are all sinners and have no assurance of God's mercy when we die, then somehow, we have merited God's mercy." Why does this follow?

"and if we have become Christ-like "enough" for his liking. This is unbiblical, Kolo."
Your becoming Christ-like, in Orthodoxy, requires that YOU do certain acts. YOU adopt certain attitudes. In other words, Christ's death didn't reconcile You with God and it wasn't enough to save you eternally. It required something more. This doctrine ADDS something to the sacrifice of Christ for salvation. Scripture indicates that it was His sacrifice alone that saved us.

Titus 3:4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 9:12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 10:14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

And many many many more.

Not at all, B. God created man in His image and likeness. The the potential to attain, through a response to God's grace, that likeness was lost in the Fall. Through the Incarnation, that potential to respond was restored. Our created purpose is to become like God. We either do or we don't. because we are all sinners we likely will attain very little similitude to Christ. Our only hope is that God will be merciful.
Scripture says that NONE seeks after God, no not one. By the theology that you illiterate, Christ is dead in vain. Nobody will come per Scripture, but gee, At least Christ's death made it possible for them to come. Reformed theology recognizes man's depravity. It recognizes his unwillingness to come. It recognizes God's need for justice and fulfillment of that justice. And it recognizes God's grace towards the objects of His mercy while preserving His justice.

"And when it was done, He cried it is FINISHED! No more needed to be done to reconcile man with God. It was enough."

God's blood lust was satiated, B?
Do not be snide. Christ's blood is our life. The wages of sin was death. To give us life, the shedding blood was necessary to make atonement for sin. Leviticus 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.; Hebrews 9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Without the blood-sacrifice of Christ Jesus, our sins were not atoned for and our salvation was not obtained. It was not blood-lust. It was God's justice and mercy in action. If you don't like it, your argument is against Scripture.

"Well, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience with Islamic militants. What year, month, day did you personally gain so much more experience with them than the rest of us on this thread?"

Most recently in the late 90s, but going back to the 70s in Saudi, in Egypt, in Turkey, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Thailand. And as you know, I come from a culture which lived under Mohammedan oppression for 500 years. No brand of Protestantism ever faced even a few years of dhimmitude. Orthodoxy has spent the past 500+ years living with it.
And you YOURSELF, personally experienced this oppression? Not your culture, but you, Kolokotronis?

To this day the Protestant cultures of the West throw Orthodox Christians and Eastern Christians in communion with Rome to the Mohammedan wolves. We're doing it in Lebanon, we're doing it in the Palestinian territories, we're doing it in Egypt, we're doing it in Saudi, we're doing it in Iraq and we're doing it in Kosovo.
How do the Protestants throw the Orthodox to the wolves? Is your complaint against the US Policies in these areas? If so, I would not claim it to be a "Protestant Culture" but a secular one. Yes, the President is Protestant and the VP and several on his cabinet. But I don't see a lot of Protestants in the Supreme Court & I think the Attorney General is Catholic. Tony Blair is basically a New Age nominal anglican. I am not sure what big bad "Protestant Cultures" are throwing Orthodox folks to the Islamic wolves.

Is this because Protestants are the elect and the rest of us damned, or is it because the Protestant Reformation and its child the Enlightenment leads you to a better understanding of the Mohammedan world than your fellow Christians who live or lived with it and thus the West's active participation in the destruction of Orthodox and Eastern Christianity in places like Kosovo or Iraq or the disregard shown the same evil throughout No. Africa and the Middle East is OK because you guys know better?
Us guys? Okay, it appears that you are trying to slam US Policy. As such, you are exposing a bigotry towards anyone who is a Protestant. The US President makes a decision, so it was "Protestantism" that hurt the Orthodox in Kosovo, Lebanon, and every other place you want to lay blame at the feet of "Protestantism".

Arguably, you may have more experience with actual Muslims than many of us on a personal basis (though I would not cede that point to you, for we have no idea who is lurking on this thread and I know people personally whose lives are in danger because they are Christians in some very militant Muslim lands- all Protestants). But, what you do not know about American culture is a lot.

America is NOT a Protestant nation. It is very secular. Christians vote for sure, but Protestantism does not drive our votes. It drives our worldview on certain issues, but none of these issues are uniquely "Protestant" (i.e., right to life is also a HUGE Catholic issue). Our support for Israel is the one political thing which may be influenced by a Protestant (specifically evangelical) worldview. But the Protestants in the World Council of Churches reject this support and our national policy has not been super Israel-friendly in the past several years - so even there, we are ultimately secular. I would that we were Protestant. Protestants run Samaritans Purse, one of the largest humanitarian organizations in the world ministering to Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc., all over the world with the Word of God. But Protestantism is NOT the cause for all of the ills of the Eastern Orthodox church.

"The idea that Satan is a fallen angel is foreign to Pharisaical Judaism.." Ezekiel 28 :

28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

and Isaiah 14

14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning ! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

ping to above. Furthermore, Revelation 20 verse 2 connects Satan to the serpent in the garden.

20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Other verses describe Satan as the destroyer going about upon the earth like a lion seeking those whom he can devour.

8~)

The early saints were just common folk..

who were tortured and murdered rather than deny their faith.

The early saints were just common folk who prayed to God and God heard them.

Amen. Like the early saints, we must all be prepared to account for our faith and defend it with our last breath.

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." -- Matthew 5:11
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." -- Mark 8:35

If we are all sinners and have no assurance of God's mercy when we die, then somehow, we have merited God's mercy. IOW, our works are salvific, hopefully, if God is pleased enough with them and if we have become Christ-like "enough" for his liking. This is unbiblical.

Amen.

"I listened and heard, but they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, saying, ‘What have I done?’ Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle." -- Jeremiah 8:6

"The ultimate proof of the sinner is that he does not know his own sin." -- Martin Luther