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To: adiaireton8
Yes, we have to follow our conscience regarding the moral law. But the laity have no authority with respect to ecclesial or canon law.

There is only one Law of God.

Pray for the excommunicated person and attempt to persuade them to seek reconciliation with the Church.

Why can't you do what the Bible says?

1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

What do you think of the verses where Jesus admonishes the hierarchal and untouchable church of his time?

Here is another illustration of the folly of the doctrines of men set up by the church:

Mat 21:23 When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?" Mat 21:24 Jesus said to them, "I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. Mat 21:25 "The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?" And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Then why did you not believe him?' Mat 21:26 "But if we say, 'From men,' we fear the people; for they all regard John as a prophet." Mat 21:27 And answering Jesus, they said, "We do not know." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

1,323 posted on 10/25/2006 8:36:36 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: kerryusama04
There is only one Law of God.

The Law of God is unified in the sense of being complete. But it also has different parts, concerning different categories and aspects of Christian living. Jesus Himself gives us *two* greatest commandments. Moses gives us *ten* commandments, along with ceremonial laws, moral laws, and political laws.

Why can't you do what the Bible says? 1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

How is praying for the excommunicated person and trying to persuade him to seek reconciliation with the Church a case of failing to follow 1 Tim 5:19?

What do you think of the verses where Jesus admonishes the hierarchal and untouchable church of his time?

The Church was founded by Christ on Peter the rock (Matt 16:18). So, I think you are misinterpreting the passages to which you are referring. The Twelve Apostles are the foundation stones of the Church (see Revelation 21:14).

-A8

1,328 posted on 10/25/2006 8:56:39 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: kerryusama04

Excellent points.


1,340 posted on 10/25/2006 9:12:55 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: kerryusama04; adiaireton8; jo kus
There is only one Law of God.

There is no law against love, brother!
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. (Gal 3) and again:

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another take heed that you are not consumed by one another. (Gal 3)
"Pray for the excommunicated person and attempt to persuade them to seek reconciliation with the Church." (Adiaireton8); "

Why can't you do what the Bible says?" (Kerryusama04)


1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

We do. The English word for priest is derived from the word being translated here as elder, presbyteroi. The statement is admonishing Timothy, the leader entrusted with authority to lead the community at Ephesus to not accept accusations against a presbyter without multiple witnesses. He also instructs Timothy how to govern this church, including making decisions about who will be ordained to the office of Presbytr, and further notes that the presbyters rule the church at Ephesus. (Note also that there are not 50 churches at Ephesus, just one, and it is subject to Apostolic authority and governed by a hierarchy established by the Apostles. Timothy is charged with leading this community against individual teachings which are inconsistent with the Apostolic faith.)

We also work to follow the Bible where it says:


"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. ("Matthew 18:15-20)
Here we see the Church as the proper authority to which individuals may appeal where differences arise.

Adiaireton8 is advocating a course of action, namely prayer for the reconciliation of the person who has been excommunicated. This is an act of love, correct? This is also entirely consistent with St. Paul's example after he directs the community at Corinth to excommunicate a son and his mother or stepmother for incest (1 Cor 5: 1,2), he nonetheless admonishes the church to act with charity toward these two individuals. (2 Cor 2:5-11)
1,354 posted on 10/25/2006 10:10:32 AM PDT by InterestedQuestioner (Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you and your household will be saved.)
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