Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[adiaireton8]

As for adding to it, I grew up in a Pentecostal tradition where there were weekly "altar calls". That is not in the Bible. Nor are "revival crusades". Nor is "Reformation Sunday". Nor is Christmas day being on Dec 25. Nor is the determination of the date of Easter. As for leaving out, Protestants also typically leave out "bishops", the "sacraments" (or most of them), the "communion of saints", understanding baptism as a means for forgiveness of sins, belief in the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church", and the liturgy. Those are just examples; there are many more.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Like purgatory...praying to saints...limbo...indulgences...

Exactly. Those are examples of parts of Christ's Gospel left out by Protestants.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Peter and Rome is a diversion, not worth the time at best,

Why do you think that the role of Peter and hence the primacy of the Roman bishopric is not part of the Gospel?

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

The answer that no one has ever given us Calvinists around here is why do some respond and some don't?

Willfulness.

The verse you provided does not answer that question, but rather how is one saved.

To the contrary, “hear my words, and believe not” – “rejecteth me, and receiveth not” are willful, i.e. voluntary as compared to involuntary.

The above verse is an outward call. Those who God foreordained for His own purpose will hear that and respond with faith. Those who are not foreordained will think it is foolish.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined [God choose us] he also called,[ the verse you cite] and those whom he called he also justified,[He calls, he justifies] and those whom he justified he also glorified.[We will be at home with Him one day].

Predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive (emphasis mine).

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Romans 8 etc. should be read altogether. It exhorts us to follow the leading of the Spirit and not the carnal man (free will.) It also speaks of predestination. Both are true.

[Gamecock]

Willfulness.

And where does that come from?

[1000 silverlings]

Not being Pentecostal I can't speak for them, but on the surface, it appears you have issues with Biblical doctrine, and that we can deal with, and no need to fight. We can discuss it, that's what these threads are for, after all.

[adiaireton8]

but on the surface, it appears you have issues with Biblical doctrine

Strictly speaking, that is an ad hominem.

and that we can deal with, and no need to fight. We can discuss it, that's what these threads are for, after all.

Of course there is no need to "fight", if by "fight" you mean resort to insults or aspersions. But there may be a need to discuss/debate these issues. That is exactly what I have been doing throughout this thread.

-A8

[HarleyD]

Exactly. Those are examples of parts of Christ's Gospel left out by Protestants.

Well, if you can find some scripture where the apostles tells everyone to pray to Mary to intercede on our behalf, I'll become a Catholic tomorrow.

[HarleyD]

LOLOL!!!

How loooooowwwwwww can you gooooooo. :O)

[adiaireton8]

Well, if you can find some scripture where the apostles tells everyone to pray to Mary to intercede on our behalf, I'll become a Catholic tomorrow.

Where in Scripture does it teach that Scripture alone is our authority?

-A8

[1000 silverlings]

No ad hominem. You mentioned Baptism, the sacraments, communion, all are doctrine.

[adiaireton8]

but on the surface, it appears you have issues with Biblical doctrine

That statement is an ad hominem, because it criticizes *me* instead of my claim.

You mentioned Baptism, the sacraments, communion, all are doctrine.

I agree that baptism, communion (i.e. Eucharist), and the other five sacraments are doctrine. But most Protestants reject the sacramental character of baptism and the Eucharist (treating them as mere symbols). Most Protestants also reject the other five sacraments. And most Protestants also reject the doctrine of the "communion of saints".

-A8

[1000 silverlings]

Then I apologize for my inadverdent reply. I did not mean it as an attack on you personally.

[adiaireton8]

No offense taken. When I use the term 'ad hominem', I use it in the sense of logic, not as synonymous with 'insult'.

-A8

[Quix]

THANKS A-G. Wonderful as usual.

Calvinist: The answer that no one has ever given us Calvinists around here is why do some respond and some don't?

A-G: Willfulness.

Qx: INDEED. Though, I suppose one could reply with fingers in cheek . . . BECAUSE WE HAVE NO CHOICE--ODD A CALVINIST WOULD ASK INSTEAD OF ASSUME THAT WE ARE 100% DETERMINED! LOL.

QX: My question to Calvinists . . . WHY do Calvinists ignore the Armenian Scriptures? At least some of us hereon acknowledge a BOTH-AND in Scripture. What's so hard about that for Calvinists to never seem to manage wrapping their constructions on reality around THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD on that score? I believe the answer, to be observed in eternity will turn out to be much more psychological than theological.

Qx: I think that position is UNSCRIPTURAL; and . . . deadly to those who are not yet sensitive enough to Holy Spirit to think things through with His guidance to arrive at the truly BOTH/AND Biblical position.
A-G: To the contrary, “hear my words, and believe not” – “rejecteth me, and receiveth not” are willful, i.e. voluntary as compared to involuntary.

Calvinist: The above verse is an outward call. Those who God foreordained for His own purpose will hear that and respond with faith. Those who are not foreordained will think it is foolish.

Qx: What a bald-faced ASSUMPTION, PRESUMPTION, EXTRAPOLATION, INFERENCE UNSUPPORTED by the text.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined [God choose us] he also called,[ the verse you cite] and those whom he called he also justified,[He calls, he justifies] and those whom he justified he also glorified.[We will be at home with Him one day].

A-G: Predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive (emphasis mine).

Qx: Indeed--Dr Walter Martin's computer analogy with a computer as vast as the known multiverse . . . wherein at the level of the programmer . . . things are 'predetermined' in some unknown set of senses . . . and the programmer certainly has free will to adjust the program to achieve His goals . . . but at the level of finite beings in our time/space dimensionality . . . the choices are authentic choices with authentic accountability . . . I think that analogy is probably one amongst several that could be construed to be fairly accurate representations of how God has set things up.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

A-G: Romans 8 etc. should be read altogether. It exhorts us to follow the leading of the Spirit and not the carnal man (free will.) It also speaks of predestination. Both are true.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply! Indeed, rejecting the Truth the Spirit has pointed them to is a willful, i.e. voluntary, act.

But before you said:

"An unsaved person does not have the Spirit, so he isn't either resisting or grieving God. But if God determined to save that soul, there is no amount of resisting that will stop it. If there is, then God isn't God."

Seems to me that for your post at 1903 and 1870 to agree, then either (a) God wasn't really determined to save the Jews or (b) those who are not indwelt by the Spirit can resist but those who are indwelt by the Spirit can't resist Him.

The Torah disputes a. Romans 8 disputes b.

[Quix]

Strictly speaking, that is an ad hominem.

woop woop. Most such comments do not add a thing to my appreciation for any aspect of the posting dialogue. They come across to me as one-upsmanship and intellectual puffery. Probably just me. FWIW.

[Quix]

Quite a number of places indicate the primacy of Scripture, actually.

[adiaireton8]

Quite a number of places indicate the primacy of Scripture, actually.

Where in Scripture does it teach that Scripture alone is our authority?

-A8

[Quix]

PTL for that.

I don't mean to slight what God might be doing through me. I just know the clay whereof I was dug from. And I know something about how far I have to go to be conformed to His image. ergo . . .

LUB,