Posted on 10/16/2006 8:27:21 AM PDT by NYer
Pope Benedict XVI celebrates the canonization ceremony of Italian nun Rosa Venerini, Mexican bishop Rafael Guizar, Italian priest Filippo Smaldone and Indiana nun Theodore Guerin in St. Peter's square at the Vatican, October 15, 2006. REUTERS/Giampiero Sposito
By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor
PARIS (Reuters) - After almost two decades of schism, Catholic traditionalists hope the Vatican will soon take them back into the fold by granting two key concessions and leaving unresolved the main issue that drove them away.
Bishop Bernard Fellay, head of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), says the expected revival of the old Latin mass that was replaced in the 1960s by modern liturgy in local languages would be a "grand gesture" meeting one of his demands.
The Swiss bishop, successor to the late SSPX founder French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, also expects the Vatican to lift the 1988 excommunications of Lefebvre and four bishops -- including Fellay -- whom he consecrated without Rome's approval.
"Things are going in the right direction. I think we'll get an agreement," Fellay told journalists in Paris at the weekend. "Things could speed up and come faster than expected."
Getting an agreement now would mean the Swiss-based SSPX and its 470 priests could return to the Roman fold without resolving a dispute over its opposition to the modernising reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965).
Claiming a million followers, the SSPX is the vanguard of traditionalists among 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide. Its return would have no direct effect on most parishes but high symbolic value for arch-conservatives in the Church.
The excommunications by the late Pope John Paul created the first schism in the Church in modern times. Since his election last year, Pope Benedict has been trying to hold out an olive branch to the SSPX.
Fellay envisages the SSPX would be an independent group within the Church, free of control by local bishops, while it continued to advocate rolling back other Vatican II reforms.
"We would be a bit like the Chinese Patriotic Church, in the Church without really being there," he explained. "There could be a relationship between Rome and us, but it would not yet be a juridical relationship."
"INTERMEDIATE STATE"
Speculation about an SSPX return arose last week when Vatican sources said Pope Benedict would soon allow wider use of the old Tridentine Mass in Latin that went out of favour when the Church switched to praying in local languages in the 1960s.
Priests can say the old mass if they get permission but few bishops grant it and demand for Latin rites is minimal. Most Catholics under 50 years old have never heard Latin spoken.
The SSPX thinks the post-Council liturgy, which stresses participation by worshippers in open praying and singing, has lost the sacred character and beauty of the traditional mass.
The Tridentine rite it prefers is solemn, with the priest and altar boys quietly reciting the prayers in Latin with their backs to the silent congregation.
The traditionalists also reject the Council decision that the Church, which long saw itself as the only path to salvation, should respect and work together with other faiths.
Echoing this, a senior SSPX official sparked controversy last year by urging the Pope to tell Jews and followers of other religions to convert from their "false systems" to Catholicism.
Fellay said the SSPX sought an "intermediate state" in the Church so it could continue to oppose what Lefebvre called "neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies ... in the Second Vatican Council and in all the reforms which issued from it."
"We don't want a practical solution before these doctrinal questions are resolved," he said. "The focus should be on these discussions."
Benedict, who sparked protest across the Muslim world last month with a speech hinting that Islam had been spread by the sword, has frequently stressed his support for Vatican II reforms including cooperation with other faiths.
Maybe they read you. They sure sound a lot like you.
* Schism breeds insanity. Imagine any Traditional priest labelling his excommunication a great blessing from God. And, while he acknowledges his excommunication, his supporters spin various explanations about how he never was excommunicated.
And I am nervous Pope Benedict is gonna embrace this insanity? Not at all. He is a holy and intelligent man.
Back in the day, they'd have been shot.
Try and imagine someone like General Robert E. Lee deserting the battlefield them mounting some horse, drawing his sword and pretending to lead some group of deserters as the Traditional General of Eternal Richmond, all the while labelling Jefferson Davis a Northern Spy in the service of Satan and you'll get some idea of what Real Catholics think of the nitwit general of the sspx.
We think he is a joke. A total joke
I am but returning rhetorical tats for every Fellay tit. Don't think I am not enjoying it either :)
Have a marvelous day, brother
I very much like Pope Benedict XVI (despite sometimes misguided retractions regarding Muslims) and I have to have faith in his Holy judgment. But, frankly, how could having 1 million raving traditionalists (good and bad both, as in all groups) in the Church be any different than the millions of protestant-catholics that are in the pews every Sunday or the pedophile Priests and pandering Bishops? I'ma thinking it might just even things out a little and us in the middle can be forgotten and left alone once more.
In other words, what has the left to worry about? Your "liturgical dance" programme isn't going anywhere.
LOL
Do modernist heretics like their crow served baked or BBQed?
A straight Vermonter!
Wow - talk about a minority!
the difference being ????
* I read the Vatican Two Documents. I never encountered those things.
I very much like Pope Benedict XVI (despite sometimes misguided retractions regarding Muslims) and I have to have faith in his Holy judgment. But, frankly, how could having 1 million raving traditionalists (good and bad both, as in all groups) in the Church be any different than the millions of protestant-catholics that are in the pews every Sunday or the pedophile Priests and pandering Bishops? I'ma thinking it might just even things out a little and us in the middle can be forgotten and left alone once more.
*I really don;t understand what you are getting at here.
In other words, what has the left to worry about?
*Dunno. I am not "left" Your "liturgical dance" programme isn't going anywhere.
*LOL I didn't realise I had a liturgical dance program
A Christian enters a schism
Christian: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(Fellay does not respond.)
Mr. Christian 'Ello, Miss?
Fellay: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Christian I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Fellay: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Christian: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this schism what I entered not a half an hour ago in this former airplane hangar.
Fellay: Oh yes, the, uh, the Real Church...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Christian: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
Fellay: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's praying
Mr. Christian: Look, matey, I know a schism when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Fellay: No no, we're not dead, we're praying.! Remarkable Church, the French True Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful vestments.
Mr. Christian: The vestments don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
Fellay:: Nononono, no, no! 'E's praying
Mr. Christian: All right then, if he's praying, I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Poppie Pal! I've got a lovely fresh liturgical directive for you...
(Fellay hits the cage)
Fellay: There, Tradition in action !
Mr. Chrristian: No, that ain't Tradition. That was you pounding the pulpit
Fellay: I never!!
Mr. Christian: Yes, you did!
Fellay: I never, never did anything...
Mr. Christian (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO POPPIE!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock Illicit Mass Call!
(Takes schism out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
Mr. Christian: Now that's what I call a dead schism
. Fellay:: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. Christian: STUNNED?!? Fellay: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was reviving Tradition. True Blues stun easily, major.
Mr. Christian: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That schismt is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of life was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk about invalid excommunications
Fellayr: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for eternal Rome
Mr. Christian: PININ' for eternal Rome? Eternal Rome? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?
Fellay: The True Blue Blue prefers keepin' on it's kneees! Remarkable schism , id'nit, squire? Lovely vestments
Mr. Christian: Look, I took the liberty of examining that schism when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the first place was that it had been NAILED there.
(pause)
Fellay Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed the schism down, it would have nuzzled up to the Vatican, bent 'it apart with its beak, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
Mr. Christian: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this schism wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
Fellay: No no! 'E's pining for eternal Rome!
Mr. Christian: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This schism is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the pulpit 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' bastards in hell!! THIS IS AN EX-Church!!
(pause)
Fellay: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh, we're right out of real Churches.
Mr. ChristianPraline: I see. I see, I get the picture.
Fellay: I got a SSSPV.
(pause)
Mr. Christian: Is it's mass licit?
Fellay: Nnnnot really.
Mr. Christian: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
Keep posting. The poisonous fruits of modernist heresy so evident from your posts are driving more and more people to Tradition every day.
We should be thanking you.
And we will, as soon as we stop laughing at you.
Tell me, are you planning to self-medicate with Scotch or whiskey when the time comes?
I do look forward to the thank you's though :)
"Besides, real Christians don't drink on school nights."
Uh oh.
SPPX (with apologies to St. Pius) are not coming back. They say the church hierarchy has sworn allegience to Satan, the Cathechism of the Catholic church is overflowing with heresies and the church has delibertly distorted and taught heresies (such as NFP and the correct understanding of no salvation outside of the Church). And that's just the mainstream ones. Why would they come back?
Then there's folks like Williamson and Tissier de Mallaraise. Williamson has been delivering gems for years now, such as it is a sin for women to wear pants and women are not capable of higher learing.
http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/September1-2001.htm He also blames the government for 9/11, Oklahoma City and Pearl Harbor. http://sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/September1-2002.htm
Tissier claims that not one Jew perished in the gas chambers of Hitler. http://jloughnan.tripod.com/sparwill.htm
These guys belong at DU, they won't be comfortable in full communion with Rome. They are filled with way too much hate and anger. They're not coming back.
Fellay: Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
Pope:Come, Archbishop Bertone
Patsy. Fellay:Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!
*Remember the Iron Law of schisms, "They grow by leaps and bounds."
Who are you to claim a schism isn't a result of the Triune God defending His Church. Don't you know that Tradition teaches schisms preserve the truth which the Church Jesus established tries, from time to time, to destroy. If it weren't for this most recent schism, Holy Mother Church would perish. Get with it man :)
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