Posted on 07/05/2006 7:04:56 PM PDT by sionnsar
The Episcopal Diocese of Dallas today joined a growing rejection of the church's newly elected bishop because she supports same-sex relationships.
Bishop James Stanton wrote a letter asking Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams for a "direct pastoral relationship" from overseas -- instead of being under the American church.
(Excerpt) Read more at kltv.com ...
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About time. I've been wondering when this would occur.
I don't quite understand this -- Williams obviously supports homosexual activity, too!
Understood. "The Druid" has multiple issues to balance.
VERRRY interesting. I'm in the Dallas diocese but in a medium sized liberal leaning parish.
I wonder what this means for us?? The largest church in the diocese (PLANO) already pulled out.
If we have direct Anglican oversight, what will that mean for the women priests in the diocese? We have one. I like her a lot. (Don't tell me I'm a sinner for this...I already know I'm a sinner, but not for this)
St. Michael's and All Angels was the largest Episcopal church in Dallas, but their current rector is a Griswold supporter and they've been loosing members big-time over all this. The members have been flocking into the more conservative Dallas Episcopal churches such as the Episcopal Church of the Ascension. The word I've heard is that they will be quite happy to be called Anglicans now, they just can't handle the ersatz Christianity that ECUSA now represents.
St. Michael's and All Angels was the largest Episcopal church in Dallas, but their current rector is a Griswold supporter and they've been losing members big-time over all this. The members have been flocking into the more conservative Dallas Episcopal churches such as the Episcopal Church of the Ascension. The word I've heard is that they will be quite happy to be called Anglicans, they just can't handle the ersatz Christianity that ECUSA now demands.
Well, the Episcopalian Church has now lost about 9% of its membership in one week.
For the love of God, Altura...the entire U.S. Episcopal Church is coming apart at the seams! Whole congregations have & will continue to walk away from the only church they've ever known (leaving everything right down to the pew pencils to a bunch of anal fornicators), faithful priests have been deposed, Anglicans in Africa are being murdered in their churches by Muslims who point to the U.S. as an example of how ALL Christians are infidels deserving death, & your only concern seems to be "what does this all mean for this really nice woman priest at my parish?"
You leave me utterly speechless.......
Stanton doesn't seem to have anything against female 'priests' - hasn't he taken in several that Ilker wouldn't allow into Fort Worth? And the current AoC is quite liberal in that regard as well. I can't see Dallas going under Nigeria, but there are plenty of places that they would fit in. The most likely outcome will be membership in a moderate to conservative American church.
"You leave me utterly speechless......."
Apparently not. (smile)
"You leave me utterly speechless......."
Apparently not. (smile)
From what I hear from our priest and our (female)deacon who works at the Diocese, Stanton is unfailingly courteous and kind to all the women priests and deacons.
I think that he, personally, is not particularly in favor of women in the priesthood, but now accepts it as inevitable and also I believe he has been impressed by the quality of a lot of the women priests and deacons.
He sent a woman supply priest to be our rector during a one year interim.
And, yes, our own priest came from Fort Worth where, of course, she couldn't be ordained and he took her in.
So, I don't think he would go along with any move that would cause the removal of women priests.
Other than that, I would be happy if we left ECUSA.
Could someone answer for this non-Anglican a technical question? When one of the dioceses of the Episcopal Church obtains "oversight" from a bishop in another country rather than from the Presiding Bishop, does that canonically amount to leaving the Episcopal Church for a different Anglican body?
It seems to this outsider that the Presiding Bishop is making the claim that the dioceses are "creatures" of the General Convention, which I take to mean that in your canon law only the General Convention can create and dissolve dioceses of ECUSA. If she is correct, that would seem to imply one of two things: (a) the diocese obtaining foreign oversight and all its members remain in ECUSA, but have an anomalous provision for their oversight, or (b) the existing diocese as a legal entity remains in ECUSA, but its former bishop and many of its former members cease to consider themselves as such and in fact create a schism between the official ECUSA diocese (which remains under the PB) and a new diocese that is not part of ECUSA.
In other words: are all these dioceses asking for special oversight really leaving ECUSA in a canonical sense?
It's a messy situation that IMHO is just going to cause more trouble in the future.
Our prayers are with them. We continue to pray for a faithful continuing church.
Maybe it's time for some Episcopalians to "swim the Tiber." Hubby and I left the ECUSA last year (Dallas Diocese) and joined an Anglican Use Roman Catholic Church, which uses the "Book of Divine Worship," taken in large part from the BCP.
http://www.anglicanuse.org/
Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio has a DVD of a typical Sunday Mass and it is quite beautiful: Rite I language, priest facing Ad Orientum, lots of incense, and the wonderful Anglican hymns which everyone knows and loves. This DVD can be ordered from their religious store, as well as the "Book of Divine Worship."
http://www.atonementonline.com/index.php
There are also Anglican Use parishes in Arlington and Houston. Here are their websites:
http://www.stmarythevirgin.org/
http://www.walsingham-church.org/
The Catholic Church welcomes you!
You asked: "are all these dioceses asking for special oversight really leaving ECUSA in a canonical sense?"
That is a distinct possibility. Here's the rub...the new Presiding Bishop (Schori) must accept another primate providing oversight to a diocese in her province. She's certainly under no obligation to do so even if alternative primatial oversight is endorsed by Canterbury. Schori could (& some say she WILL) declare those Sees vacant (as abandoned by their bishop), depose that bishop from ECUSA, & invoke the Denis Canon to sieze the property & assets of the diocese through the civil courts. Schori, herself, made some very provocative comments in an interview during GC2006 which implied that she was prepared to get tough on these dissenters. There is, of course, some safety in numbers. If there are enough ECUSA bishops who ask for alternative primatial oversight, 815 may not have the financial resources to fight a protracted legal battle on multiple fronts. I have no doubt, however, that Schori (& the radical Left that she represents) are prepared to bankrupt the national church, ala Bp. Bennison's vengeful grudge match with Fr. Moyer.
There will be a lull before the storm. I wouldn't expect anything more than breast-beating out of 815 until after Schori takes over - in other words, I wouldn't expect the 'dogs of war' to be unleashed until the first quarter of 2007 at the soonest.
What I would like to know (& if there are any lawyers reading this, I hope they'll weigh in) - I'd like to know if it's possible for dissenting dioceses & parishes to join in a class action lawsuit in the federal courts to invalidate the Denis Canon instead of everyone fighting this battle on a state by state basis? The Denis Canon was crafted for the specific purpose of being a means for extorting loyalty to ECUSA in response to the losses they suffered with the '79 Prayer Book & women's ordination debacle. It allows both diocesan bishops & the national church to hold property & assets hostage to prevent anyone leaving ECUSA except empty-handed. Extortion is never legal & I can't believe the federal courts would regard the Denis Canon as a valid contract because of it.
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