The Book of Mormon Challenge

The Book of Mormon is often dismissed as gibberish by those who have never taken the trouble to read it. In fact, its very existence poses a serious puzzle if it is not what it claims to be - an ancient record. Below is the Book of Mormon Challenge, an assignment that Professor Hugh Nibley at BYU sometimes gave to students in a required class on the Book of Mormon. The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.8, Ch.11, Pg.221 - Pg.222:

Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.

Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!

To date no student has carried out this assignment, which, of course, was not meant seriously. But why not? If anybody could write the Book of Mormon, as we have been so often assured, it is high time that somebody, some devoted and learned minister of the gospel, let us say, performed the invaluable public service of showing the world that it can be done." - Hugh Nibley

Structure and Complexity of the Book of Mormon First Nephi gives us first a clear and vivid look at the world of Lehi, a citizen of Jerusalem but much at home in the general world of the New East of 600 B.C. Then it takes us to the desert, where Lehi and his family wander for eight years, doing all the things that wandering families in the desert should do. The manner of their crossing the ocean is described, as is the first settlement and hard pioneer life in the New World dealt with.... The book of Mosiah describes a coronation rite in all its details and presents extensive religious and political histories mixed in with a complicated background of exploration and colonization. The book of Alma is marked by long eschatological discourses and a remarkably full and circumstantial military history. The main theme of the book of Helaman is the undermining of society by moral decay and criminal conspiracy; the powerful essay on crime is carried into the next book, where the ultimate dissolution of the Nephite government is described.

Then comes the account of the great storm and earthquakes, in which the writer, ignoring a splendid opportunity for exaggeration, has as accurately depicted the typical behavior of the elements on such occasions as if he were copying out of a modern textbook on seismology.... [Soon] after the catastrophe, Jesus Christ appeared to the most pious sectaries who had gathered at the temple.

...Can anyone now imagine the terrifying prospect of confronting the Christian world of 1830 with the very words of Christ? ...

But the boldness of the thing is matched by the directness and nobility with which the preaching of the Savior and the organization of the church are described. After this comes a happy history and then the usual signs of decline and demoralization. The death-struggle of the Nephite civilization is described with due attention to all the complex factors that make up an exceedingly complicated but perfectly consistent picture of decline and fall. Only one who attempts to make a full outline of Book of Mormon history can begin to appreciate its immense complexity; and never once does the author get lost (as the student repeatedly does, picking his way out of one maze after another only with the greatest effort), and never once does he contradict himself. We should be glad to learn of any other like performance in the history of literature. - Hugh Nibley, Collected Works Vol. 8

The four types of biblical experts There are four kinds of biblical experts: At the very top are the professionals who have been doing biblical research all their adult lives. They are usually professors in leading universities in various fields that are related to the Bible such as archaeologists, historians, paleographers, professors of the Bible, and professors of Near Eastern languages and literature.

These people are the most credible of all biblical experts and do not let religious views get in the way of the truth. This is why a lot of them consider themselves to be nonbelievers in the modern Christian and Jewish faiths. Their reputation and standing in the academic community is very important to them. This causes them to be cautious and not rashly declare statements upon any subject without presenting verifiable proof for their claims. It is to them that encyclopedias, journals and universities go to for information. Their community is very small, but extremely influential in the secular world. One distinctive feature of this group is the difficulty outsiders face when reading their writings which causes them to be a fairly closed society.

The second group of biblical experts are those who have legitimate degrees and may have initially been in the first group but were spurned by the first group for being unreliable because they disregard demonstrable proof simply because their religious convictions teach otherwise. For them, their religion's teaching overrides real biblical research. Very few of them can be considered Fundamentalists.

The third group of biblical experts are the "biblical experts." These people disregard the works and conclusions of the first group, and view the second group as their mentors. Nearly all anti-Mormons who produce anti-Mormon paraphernalia fall into this group. Their views are purely theological and display ignorance of legitimate biblical studies. Their arguments are non-rational and are frequently sensational hype and empty rhetoric. These people are very vocal and constantly parade their "expertise" upon the unknowing masses by giving seminars in various churches and religious schools. Nearly all of them are Fundamentalists.

The fourth group of "biblical experts" are those who have never read the Bible completely and do not even know the history and contents of the Bible. They are completely reliant upon materials produced by the third group and may have five verses in the Bible memorized to quote at people they encounter (in nearly every instance John 3:16 and John 14:6 are included in these five verses) to give the impression they are experts in the Bible. They usually need the Table of Contents to find various biblical books and are extremely vocal in their condemnation of Mormonism. They personify the wise adage:

The remainder of Christians are those who believe in the Bible but never read it. The Bible is a very complex book for most Christians and seems to possess a power that intimidates them. This is why a normal Christian is impressed whenever he or she encounters an individual who can quote scripture. It is this ignorance of the Bible that causes some to proclaim themselves "biblical experts."

I am not aware of anyone in the first group of biblical experts who are anti-Mormon. If anything, real biblical scholars who know Mormon theology have a profound sense of admiration for it and are usually astonished that so many facets of Mormonism reflect authentic biblical teachings.

They are frequently puzzled at how Joseph Smith could find out the real biblical teaching since modern Judaism and Christianity abandoned them thousands of years ago. Uniquely Mormon doctrines such as the anthropomorphic nature of God, the divine nature and deification potential of man, the plurality of deities, the divine sanction of polygamy, the fallacy of sola scriptura, the superiority of the charismatic leaders over the ecclesiastical leaders and their importance, the inconsequence of Original Sin because of the Atonement of Christ, the importance of contemporary revelation, and so forth are all original Jewish and Christian thought before they were abandoned mainly due to Greek philosophical influence.

Mormonism to these scholars is the only faith that preserves the characteristics of the early chosen people. This doesn’t mean these scholars believe Mormonism is the true religion, since their studies are on an intellectual level instead of a spiritual one.

On the other hand, the leaders of the anti-Mormon movement are nearly all in the third category with a couple in the second. Real biblical experts (who aren’t Mormon) and are in the first category normally refer to the “biblical experts” in the third group as the “know-nothings” or the “Fundamentalist know-nothings.” These terms aren’t completely derogatory, but are accurate descriptions of the knowledge of the “biblical experts” in the third group. Ed Watson - Mormonism: Faith of the 21st Century

Am I an Anti-Mormon?

I would be considered by most members of the Church, an "Anti-Mormon." But by their definition of what the term means, I am not. Here is why. Whenever I ask a member what an anti mormon is, they say something like this,
"An anti Mormon is someone who hates Mormons or the Mormon church, attacks it out of anger, contention, or hate, and distorts the teachings of the church to make it sound bad. They lie, and will say anything to bring the church down. Most often, they are bitter ex members who could not keep the commandants, or were offended by someone in the church and left only to live in misery and jealousy. They either know the church is still true and are not good enough to live it, or they have been infected with an evil spirit telling them that the church is not true, when it is."

Ok, wow, that sounds pretty horrible doesn't it? There may be people out there like this, but I think they are few in numbers, and people like me just get slapped with the label anti mormon because we publicly say the LDS church is not Christ's church, but there is a big difference between me and an anti mormon.

Yes, I do not believe the Church to be true, and am against the false doctrines leading it's members down the wrong path. And yes, I do actively speak out, but my message is not one of hate or anger, it is one of love and concern, as I believe the LDS people do not have the true gospel of Christ. My desire is to share with them the truth about God, and His plan for us. I never distort the teachings of the church or twist the quotes of the prophets, but use direct LDS source material, and let the reader think for themselves on the meaning. I don't lie, I don't hate, I am not miserable or jealous in any way, I was never once offended by a Mormon in a way that would cause me to leave the church.

I don't attack people, but let them come to me. If I want to talk to someone and they don't, I respect that. I don't consider myself anti-mormon, but pro God and Pro Truth! I believe that the term Anti-Mormon and the definition Mormons believe it to have, was made up by the Church in attempt to scare members away from people like me, who are just trying to share what we know the true gospel of Christ to be! I do not call Mormons Anti-Christians, even though I don't believe them to be true Christians. I have no need to create an evil name or purpose for them.

I am not offended by the term, I only wish to clear up the misconception, so that you members will not be frightened away from my message. I was very happy in the Church, and never had a single bad experience with the Church or any of the members, and I am certainly not angry, offended, or secretly still think the Church is true, but am too proud to come back, or have given in to sin, and don't want to change or admit it. I am not miserable, and therefore attacking the Church for the sake of just being contentious!

I do not consider myself an anti-mormon if that is what it means. I am sorry if you see me this way, because it is not true. I am not hurt by any accusations because I belong to Christ, and as far as I'm concerned, beyond my personal relationship with Him, I care not. As far as you are concerned, I just want you to hear Christ's message. I try to say things in a way that will ensure the reader that I care for them, and consider them lost and in need of help, and that is my only reason for doing this. I have a life. A happy one. And I want to share my happiness.

If anyone thinks that I have nothing better to do than hate the Church or it's members, they should know that I attend a Christian church, I have friends, a wonderful husband, two beautiful children, and I like nothing more than to just spend time with them. As a mother, I have plenty to do, and yet I have chosen to spend almost every spare second of my time, trying to help you! I want desperately to reach my family, and all others that I can, and help them to see and understand the blessing of Christ's love that they are missing out on. I have as much love for the members of the Church that I know and don't know, as any person can have for another child of God. I pray for you, I think about you, I study for you, I write for you, I pay money that I barely have each month to have this web site, and support my ministry of Bibles, and other materials that I give out for free, and also to advertise and supply my Former Mormon support group that I organize that meets here in Southern Oregon monthly. I talk to you, I pray for you, I do everything I can, to reach you.

I am sad at the misunderstanding towards the Evangelical Christian community who is trying to witness to you about Christ. Your Church has probably the greatest missionary program in the world, and yet you put me down for trying to be a missionary to you. I also understand that because I haven't always been what I am, you think me worse. Meaning, if I had always been a Christian, and was trying to witness to you, you might at least listen, if only to try to convert me, but since I have been a Mormon, and have denounced the faith, you see me as a threat, and as a denier of the Holy Ghost; someone who "knew" and was still deceived. You may see me as someone who must have believed lies about the Church. I have been told that I must have an evil spirit come over me to have left the Church. However you want to describe it, you may feel like I am not a person to try to witness to because I know about the LDS Church, or because you do not want to be influenced by evil.

This is how I used to think, and I as a Mormon, I always heard that if you talk to or read something the church considers to be anti-mormon in your home or wherever, that you are actually inviting evil spirits into your home or mind, and that this is a sin, and because of it, you might be tempted, and fall away! This is a lie. first of all, if you are feeling evil spirits, there is no doubt in my mind that Satan is making you feel this way to scare you away from truth; it is not coming from me, and secondly, if you truly had the spirit of God, He would protect you from evil spirits, and certainly from believing them. If your Church is true, then it will not fall, and you will not fall away from God by listening to me. If you fall, you will be falling in the direction of truth!

2 Timothy 1:7-8
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;"
This verse tells us that if we are in Him, we should not be afraid of anything. His word and truth will be sound in our minds. This is my God; if this is not the way your God works, you should question why you use the Bible. If you do not agree with the Bible, you should be very afraid. This is why...

Galatians 1:8
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
If your gospel or your God is different than the Bible, it is wrong. The Bible tells us to judge not by spirits, but by the word of God. You can't trust what you feel, but you can trust God. So don't listen to spirits, just read and listen, and then use your sound mind that God gave you to understand, and compare it with the Bible.

Hebrews 4 :12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 John 4: 1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
These together tell us that spirits need to be tried and tested, even if they feel good, or feel bad; this is not a way to judge, but the Bible is.

To sum things up, I do not hate Mormons, I do not enjoy picking the church apart, I do not do this for fun, or to make myself feel better, and I certainly do not try to anger people. I am not an anti-mormon in this sense. I would guess that true anti-mormons are people who do not want to witness of Christ to you, or anything else for that matter, but just know the church isn't true, and want to tear it down. I don't understand those who attack religions when they don't believe in God, or some who just don't believe in Hell. Why would they care if you did? I do this because I do believe in God, and Hell, and because I care about where you are going after you die. There is a big difference, and I hope you can see that.

>>Who asked you to do this? Is there a possibility you are mistaken?
>>How do you know its *your* job to protect the world from Mormons,
>>we are not so bad, you aren’t a bad person, and you used to be one of us.

>>Where do you get your authority? Our authority resides in the Great Commission
>>of Matthew 28, which was prefaced by Jesus saying "ALL [not some] authority in
>>heaven and earth has been given unto me, go and make disciples of all
>>nations...baptizing them in the Name [notice it says Name--singular, not the
>>LDS plural] of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

(BTW I really am enjoying this, you are fun to talk to)
So who exactly GAVE Christ this authority if he is the only God involved why not say I have all authority…

I notice Christ is talking to his disciples, not all the body of the church, this is an exclusive gathering of his apostles, people he CALLED and ANOINTED to this position.

BTW, I don’t see anything there that says “And never let a positive word about Mormons go unchallenged”

Maybe I am dense, so spell it out for me. When exactly did God ask you to debunk the Mormon religion for the entire world to see? If God didn’t ask you to, then who did?

Or is it possible that when you left our fellowship you still had a burr under your saddle, could it be you are not at peace and this is why you attack anything positive said about Mormons?

Colorfonian, I honestly believe you to BE a good person at heart. I believe you are doing this because you think it is the right thing to do. I also believe it is a canker on your soul. Christ never told anyone to destroy the faith of another (show me one scripture please)

>>If your authority came from a line of living prophets, where did they get their
>>authority? If it came from an LDS Jesus, where did he get his authority? If that came
>>from Elohim, where did his authority come from? If that came from a previous god,
>>where did his authority come from?

>> an LDS Jesus
There is only one Jesus Christ. You might claim we do not understand him, you may claim we are wrong about him, you might even claim we are going to hell for our misunderstandings. But to claim we are not talking about the same “Only Begotten of the father” is disingenuous and you know better.

Our claim of authority Direct from Jesus Christ without going through Peter is one of the things that makes us unique in the Christian world. God the Father Gave all authority to Jesus Christ as you so ably showed in Mathew 28. All authority over us began with him, he created us.

>>If Elohim's grand-god delegated authority, from where did that come from?
>>Run it as far back as you can, and you can find no Original, Ultimate god in LDS
>>theology. There is no god from Eternity-Past. There is no Original, Ultimate Source or
>>Author of Authority from which is triggered all other lines of authority. They were all
>>created as mere mortals who ascended to godhood. Joseph Smith said matter was
>>eternal. But apparently matter pre-dates any LDS god, who then in turn organized it.
>>Can you imagine a military with no ultimate chain-of-command where the buck stops?

Since Authority begins with the creator who cares where his genealogy goes? Did your dad have to get permission from Adam to spank you? This is a spurious argument at best, who’s only purpose is to muddy the waters with a Mormon belief that we are the literal son’s and Daughters of God. That this world is a type and a shadow of things to come and things which have happened. Jesus Christ’s very life is a blue print of our whole existence.

Consider this, Jesus during the Old Testament was pre-mortal being, during most of the New Testament was a mortal, and now, a resurrected, post-mortal being is a God. WOW what an example, how much clearer can it be?

COME ON! Ya gotta admit if we are indeed wrong, we did it with style!

>>Our Authority can only come from One who says, "Before Abraham was, I am." He is
>>the Eternal "I Am" who has always been and who always will be. He is the One who
>>created all things (John 1, Col. 1, Heb. 1). As Paul says in Colossians, nothing was
>>made that hasn't been made by Him!

Eternity, Yeesh So, If I am here before you are born, and will be here after you die with no change, am I not, to you, eternal? We speak of “Eternal Mountains”, Some Dream of “Eternal Youth”, still others seek “Limitless Wealth” What do we mere mortals know of eternities and absolutes? Everything is relative, to us God is “Eternal”.

So, back to my original question. “Who asked you to do this? Is there a possibility you are mistaken? How do you know its *your* job to protect the world from Mormons, we are not so bad, you aren’t a bad person, and you used to be one of us.”

I spent some time as a missionary in Taiwan. I learned a lot, one of the things I learned was (Translated by me) “In questioning Deity, any answer is significant.” – Taken from the Analects of Confucius.

I have questioned God. I have prayed. I have received answers. I have read the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the pearl of Great price and the Bible (at least 8 times) I have received an answer from praying about them all from the same source. I have received direction in my life that I would fear for my immortal soul if I were to deny it was from God.

I know too much to be swayed by one who would “Pick Apart my church” I have seen the propaganda, watched the films and been invited to meetings by people I thought were my friends where damnable lies were told about my church. Yet, my testimony is strong for I know that my redeemer lives. I know that He atoned for my sins in Gethsemane, and died upon the cross to bring me resurrection. I know that I am not worthy of his love, but humbly accept it anyway. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints (Mormons) is the church he has ordained and given the authority to act in these the latter days. I know this because He who is mighty to save told me so. Nothing anyone else can or will say matters on the subject. I questioned Deity, and received an answer, and I dare not deny it, Yea I will proclaim it to any who will listen. I know that my redeemer lives ant that this is his church.

My God, My Redeemer would never have me reduce the faith of another soul even if it was misguided. How would you feel if your words destroyed the faith of even one soul, and they did not continue in the Good Fight? How would you feel if you were unwittingly a tool of Satan? Be very careful in your actions, for I don’t wish to see you in the anguish I believe you would be in if that were to happen.

That said, ColorCountry, I believe you to be an honorable, if misguided person, God speed and may you continue to learn of the savior until you regain your place in his church.

Amen.

In post 104 you said” My understanding of the LDS religion, is it is one of works, pride, and placing yourself in God's rightful position of authority.”

This is why I said, “Your understanding of the LDS religion is flawed, at best.”

>>It is the religion I learned at my father's knee, and he at his father's, and he at his
>>father's and he at his father's and he at his father's. It is what I learned in my Baptism
>>and confirmation, my Patriarchal Blessing, my Sunday School, Primary, Mutual,
>>Family Home Evening, Seminary, Stake Conferences, General Conferences, Standard
>>Works, Priesthood Blessings, Family Journals while doing Geneology, and in my
>>Temple Ordinances. It is NOT what I learned in the Bible.

I do not dispute what your father taught, or did not teach, nor do I dispute the classes you took, the ordinances you performed, Genealogy you researched, Etc. I dispute that it is a religion of pride and usurpation (I’ll handle works later), your understanding is flawed at best, and I am being kind. One who claims to be God’s servant has trouble “Usurping his place as I pointed out earlier, because to take his place is to invalidate any claim of authority from him (That old circular logic thing that’s been going around). Pride is an individual sin, maybe even a wide spread one, but I have never seen it institutionalized in a church, sports teams yes, but a church no.

>>I learned to "always be a missionary" from a very good source ; ) I guess old habits die hard.

Great! Seek to increase the faith of all you meet and teach those in need of knowledge of Christ and I will support you to the end of your days. Come to those with faith, or Questions about a religion you do not believe in with answers, warnings, or information to help them decide to “Go Elsewhere” and we have a problem, you and I.

I would never presume to inform others of your faith since I do not believe it myself. I do not care how much history you have with the church, without faith, it is irrelevant. For you to present your self as a reliable source of something you do not believe in is to lie to the very people you claim to be helping. (Ends never justify the means, the means must justify themselves) The only time that “Warnings” in matters of faith would be acceptable is if you knew that we did not believe what we teach.

You Cannot prove that I do not believe what I say about my church for I am the only one who truly knows what I believe, and if I behave the way I say I will, you must take my word for it, or call me a Liar without proof or reason.

Since you have already professed not to believe the LDS faith, please direct any seekers with questions about the LDS to me.
Thank you.

If you will tell me your religious preference, I will do the same for you.

>>Saved by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone! Thank you.

You have accused us of being a religion of works, fine; here is a section straight from the Bible on that:

James 2 14-26

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that Faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

( http://scriptures.lds.org/james/2 )

I am Curious to hear your interpretation of this scripture. Are works as well as faith not required?

I wish you more and more enlightenment until you and I meet at the judgment bar of God.

I am very familiar with those verses. They were stressed in our Gospel Principals class.

You and I don't see eye to eye. It is apparent by our different interpretations of these scriptures. I doubt very much if you and I interpret the word "works" the same. I see Temple ordinances as a "work," as is church attendence, tithing, and helping the widowed and poor (which is a very noble work!)

However, James 2:18 says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Works is a manifestation of faith. It is not a requirement of salvation. Let me put it this way. A person is saved at the very instant when God puts genuine faith into his heart and he accepts Christ, even though you cannot yet see any outward evidence of faith. The change is first inside him. But his new faith is not complete until he acts upon it.

Suppose a FReeper pledges money during the quarterly pledge-a-thon. Perhaps he fully intends to send in money. But his promise is not made complete and perfect until he actually comes up with the cash. Likewise, faith is not made complete and perfect until it produces works. If it never produces works, it is dead.

James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Here, James plainly agrees that faith is the only prerequisite for justification. Faith is indicated outwardly by obedience.

>>You and I don't see eye to eye. It is apparent by our different interpretations of these
>>scriptures. I doubt very much if you and I interpret the word "works" the same. I see
>>Temple ordinances as a "work," as is church attendence, tithing, and helping the
>>widowed and poor (which is a very noble work!)

>>However, James 2:18 says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:
>>shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

So, if you really have faith there will be works. So you think Mormons are all work and no faith? (This really doesn’t make sense so please tell me it isn’t so)

>>James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it
>>was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

You know don’t you that the verses were added later and the Books of the Bible as originally written were written in letter form? So you can’t chop one scripture off and say there, this proves my point, because the line must be taken in Context.

So if we add 21 and 22 in front of 23…

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

See, the Works came first, then the perfection.

Then James adds the point of his lecture

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

>>Works is a manifestation of faith. It is not a requirement of salvation. Let me put it this
>>way. A person is saved at the very instant when God puts genuine faith into his heart
>>and he accepts Christ, even though you cannot yet see any outward evidence of faith.
>>The change is first inside him. But his new faith is not complete until he acts upon it.

This is not born out by scripture.

Do you believe men are free to believe, or not believe? Are we free agents? If God has to “Put genuine faith into“ my “heart”, and I don’t have that faith, then who’s fault is it?

Do you believe in predestination?

>>Here, James plainly agrees that faith is the only prerequisite for justification. Faith is
>>indicated outwardly by obedience.

Re-read verse 24, what you are saying directly contradicts the lesson James is teaching.

This is a real good example of why you should not answer questions about our religion, you don’t understand how we get to our positions, ergo you do not understand our positions.

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