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TULIP - Divine sovereignty, human responsibility (Southern Baptists and Calvinism)
Baptist Press ^ | Apr 4, 2006 | Daniel L. Akin

Posted on 04/05/2006 9:20:50 AM PDT by Between the Lines

Few issues are more likely to ignite a lively debate than a discussion of the relationship between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Recent years have witnessed a renewed interest in this subject in Southern Baptist life, to the delight of some and chagrin of others. The Conservative Resurgence which began in 1979 was about the authority of the Bible. Those who believe the Bible to be the inerrant and infallible Word of God will take its doctrines seriously. Issues like predestination and election, freewill and human responsibility will naturally require our careful study.

Thankfully, our theological discussions are not those of other denominations in our day. Issues like the deity of Christ, the exclusivity of the Gospel, open theism, abortion, and homosexuality are settled for Southern Baptists because of our commitment to the clear teachings of Scripture.

However, some issues in the Bible are more obscure. There is often a mystery and tension to what we find when we examine all that the Bible says on some subjects. This is clearly the case when it comes to understanding God's sovereignty and human responsibility in salvation.

Unfortunately, there is more heat than light in many instances with shrill voices and unhealthy rhetoric —- on both sides of the issue -— getting too much attention. On one side you hear people saying that God hates the non-elect and damns babies to hell. They say that Jesus was a Calvinist and that Calvinism is the Gospel. On the other side you hear voices stating that Calvinism is heresy and that Calvinists do not believe in missions and evangelism. Some even suggest that the Southern Baptist Convention could split over this issue, though I am convinced this will not happen.

I believe we need to tone down the rhetoric. We need to seek biblical balance, theological sanity, and ministerial integrity in the midst of this discussion. Let me attempt to set the playing field for this important issue and then make some theological and practical suggestions as we work together for the glory of God and the cause of Christ.

A Look at Calvinism

The issue that is being debated today almost always revolves around the idea of Calvinism. To some, this is a theological landmine to be avoided at all cost, even if they are not sure what it means. For others it signals a recovery of biblical truth growing out of the Reformation of the 16th century and its emphasis on the great solas: Scripture alone, Christ alone, grace alone, faith alone, for the glory of God alone. John Calvin (1509-64) was the great theologian of the Reformation. An outstanding biblical scholar, he heralded the theology of both Paul and Augustine (354-430). Like Martin Luther (1483-1546), he emphasized the sovereignty of God, the sinfulness of man, and the necessity of grace for salvation.

Later in the 17th century, followers of Calvin would systematize his theology and go beyond what Calvin himself taught. This system would ultimately be codified through the now famous acrostic TULIP.

The history of Southern Baptists includes those on one side of the theological spectrum who have flatly rejected three or more of Calvin's five points and those at the other who have enthusiastically embraced all of them, with many Baptists falling somewhere in between. The reality is that the SBC has included "Five-Point Calvinists" and "Modified" Calvinists from the start. It should be stressed here that, from a denominational standpoint, in this discussion there is no "right or wrong." Southern Baptists have always been diverse in many regards, and the theological realm is no exception. Neither the Southern Baptist Convention, nor its seminaries, endorse or promote a particular theological system or stance on areas not addressed in the Baptist Faith and Message.

Frankly, I don't foresee that ever changing. So what follows is not an endorsement or promotion of Calvinism, but rather a review and condensed explanation of what some of our Southern Baptist brethren believe on the five points of the Calvinistic system. My hope and prayer is that a fuller understanding will help set the stage for what follows in the final section.

Total Depravity

This view holds that man is born with a nature and bent toward sin. Every aspect of man's being is infected with the disease of sin so that he cannot save himself, neither can he move toward God without the initiating and enabling grace of God. Man is not as bad as he could possibly be, but he is radically depraved. Most Baptists would agree on this point, at least in some measure. It is hard to deny it in light of Romans 3:9-20 and Ephesians 2:1-3.

Unconditional Election

According to this view, God, in grace and mercy, has chosen certain persons for salvation. Those who hold this view believe that His decision is not based on human merit or foreseen faith, but in the goodness and providence of God's own will and purposes. Many would add, however, that the electing purpose of God is somehow accomplished without destroying human freewill and responsibility. Accordingly, no one is saved apart from God's plan, and yet anyone who repents and trusts Christ will be saved. The French theologian Moise Amyraut (1596-1664) referred to this as God's secret or hidden decree. There is an admitted tension in this position, but a tension that need not be viewed as contradictory. Calvinists commonly cite John 6:37-47 at this point.

Of course, this view is hotly debated among some Southern Baptists, with alternative interpretations of scriptural passages being offered and both sides genuinely believe they are operating from a biblical basis. The reality is Southern Baptists will likely debate this point until the Lord returns, but there is certainly no need for division or ill will over it.

Limited Atonement

Most Calvinists view this as an unfortunate phrase, preferring the term "particular redemption" instead. The original stance of Calvin's followers was that the intent of the atoning work of Christ was to provide and purchase salvation for the elect. Thus the work of Christ would be limited to the elect, and His atonement was made for a particular people (e.g. His sheep, the Church, His Bride).

This is a real point of contention for many, and, in fact, most Modified Calvinists cannot embrace this teaching in its classic form.

However, let me offer a crucial observation that hopefully will foster some unity on this point. All Bible-believers limit the atonement in some way. To not do so is to advocate Universalism, the view that eventually everyone will be saved. Most Baptists would say the Bible teaches that the atonement is limited in its application, but certainly not its provision. In other words, in His death on the cross Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:1-2; 4:9-10) making a universal provision. However, the application is limited to those who receive the free gift of salvation offered to them by their personal faith in Christ. One can see then that all evangelicals limit the atonement in some sense, but do so in different ways.

Irresistible Grace

Most Calvinists would see this as another unfortunate choice of words that stirs up unnecessary debate. Instead, they would prefer the phrase "effectual calling." This doctrine asserts that those who are predestined to be saved are called to salvation (Romans 8:30) effectually or effectively. They are not forced to come but are set free to come and they do so willingly. Timothy George strikes the balance of this teaching with human responsibility when he writes, "God created human beings with free moral agency, and He does not violate this even in the supernatural work of regeneration. Christ does not rudely bludgeon His way into the human heart. He does not abrogate our creaturely freedom. No, he beckons and woos, He pleads and pursues, He waits and wins" (Amazing Grace, p. 74).

Perseverance of the Saints

Those God saves, He protects and preserves in their salvation. Baptists have historically referred to this as the doctrine of "eternal security," or in popular terminology as "once saved, always saved." This is one point of Calvinism that almost all Baptists affirm. Sometimes misunderstood and falsely caricatured by those rejecting this doctrine, perseverance of the saints does not teach people can live any way they want and take advantage of God's grace. Rather, because of the greatness of the gift of our salvation, true believers will be grieved when they sin and will pursue a life that is pleasing to the God whom they love and Who keeps them safely in His hand (John 10:27-29).

This is a summary of "five-point Calvinism" or what its advocates call "the Doctrines of Grace." Though it is not as popular among Southern Baptists as it was in the past, there has been a rise in interest in its teachings. And one should honestly acknowledge many wonderful and significant Baptists in the past followed these doctrines. This includes men like William Carey, Andrew Fuller, Luther Rice, Adoniram Judson, Charles Spurgeon, John L. Dagg, Basil Manly Jr., and James Boyce. John Broadus and B. H. Carroll would also have considered themselves Calvinists, though both would have affirmed only four of the five points. They did not advocate particular redemption.

How then should Southern Baptists, with such a rich and diverse theological heritage, respond to this controversial issue at the dawn of the 21st century? As people of The Book who rejoice in a remarkable history, how might we move forward together in unity in the days ahead?

Finding Biblical Balance: Theological and Practical Considerations

Grasping the magnitude of this issue is a daunting task for finite, sinful humans. A good dose of humility is certainly in order. As we attempt to both understand the Bible's teaching and work alongside of those with whom we may not see eye to eye, what are some theological and practical principles that can guide us? I would offer six suggestions.

1) In our doctrine of salvation, we should start with God and not man. The Bible affirms that salvation is from the Lord (Jonah 2:9) and by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift -- not from works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). We should be God-centered in all of our theology, especially the doctrine of salvation. The Bible teaches that salvation is God's work. He is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). He takes the initiative. He is the true Seeker!

2) We should affirm the truth both of God's sovereignty and human freewill. "The Abstract of Principles" was the founding confession for The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. It was penned by Basil Manly Jr. in 1859. Manly was a Calvinist, and yet Article IV on Providence reveals a healthy, theological balance in our Baptist forefather. Manly wrote:

"God from eternity decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be author or approver of sin nor to destroy the freewill and responsibility of intelligent creatures" (emphasis mine).

Many Baptists believe the Bible teaches that God predestines and elects persons to salvation, but that He does so in such a way as to do no violence to their freewill and responsibility to repent from sin and believe the Gospel. Is there a tension here? Yes. Is there divine mystery? Absolutely! Many believe this is what Paul felt when, at the end of his magnificent treatment of this subject in Romans 9-11, he concludes with a doxology of praise and says, Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways (Romans 11:33). If you find it a challenge to fathom the depths of this doctrine then you are in good company!

3) Recognize that extreme positions on either side of the issue are biblically unbalanced, theologically unhealthy, and practically undesirable. Biblically, we affirm the truth of all of God's Word. Words like called, chosen, election, foreknowledge, and predestination are in Holy Scripture. We should embrace them, examine them, and seek to understand them, always remembering that intelligent and godly people will likely embrace differing interpretations. Words like believe, evangelist, go, preach, receive, and repent are also in the Bible. Biblical balance requires that we embrace and affirm these as well.

Theologically, we dare not be seduced into living in a theological ghetto that may espouse a nice, neat doctrinal system, but that does so at the expense of a wholesome and comprehensive theology.

Practically, we must not become manipulative and gimmicky in our presentation of the Gospel as if the conversion of the lost depends ultimately, or even primarily, on us. Neither should we be lulled into an antipathy toward personal evangelism and global missions. Attempting to construct a doctrine of double predestination wherein God elects some to damnation, hates the lost, and consigns non-elect infants to the fires of hell would be viewed by most in the SBC as irresponsible and lacking in biblical support. Any theology that does not result in a "hot heart" for the souls of lost persons is a theology not worth having. I fear that some extreme forms of Calvinism have so warped the mind and frozen the heart of its advocates that if they saw a person screaming at the top of their lungs "what must I do to be saved?", they would hesitate or even neglect the Gospel for fear of somehow interfering with the work of the Holy Spirit.

If the initials J.C. bring first to your mind the name John Calvin rather than Jesus Christ and you fancy yourself more of an evangelist for Calvinism than Christ, then this latter word of concern is particularly for you. Never forget that the greatest theologian who ever lived was also the greatest missionary/evangelist whoever lived. His name is Paul.

4) Act with personal integrity in your ministry when it comes to this issue. Put your theological cards on the table in plain view for all to see, and do not go into a church under a cloak of deception or dishonesty. If you do, you will more than likely split a church, wound the Body of Christ, damage the ministry God has given you, and leave a bad taste in the mouth of everyone. Let me give an example. I am pre-tribulational/premillennial in my eschatology. It would be inappropriate for me to interview with a church and continue the discussion if I discovered that it was committed to an amillennial position.

Now, let me address our topic. If a person is strongly committed to five-point Calvinism, then he should be honest and transparent about that when talking to a church search committee. He should not hide behind statements like "I am a historic Baptist." That statement basically says very little if anything and it is less than forthcoming. Be honest and completely so. If it is determined you are not a good fit for that congregation, rejoice in the sovereign providence of God and trust Him to place you in a ministry assignment that is a good fit. God will honor such integrity.

5) Teach the issues to your people, especially your youth. Sometimes pastors get frustrated when they send their students off to college and seminary, and they come back different. Sometimes they go to a liberal institution, and they return questioning or jettisoning the faith. Other times they go to a conservative school and return as double predestinarian, supralapsarian extreme Calvinists. They now question the public invitation and personal evangelism training and redefine into insignificance the Great Commission. It has been my experience that this latter malady is more often caught from immature fellow students than from godly professors.

This observation is not intended to absolve our colleges and seminaries of their responsibility. It is to say, however, that we do our people no favors with a dumbed-down theology in the local church. I believe we should raise the biblical and theological bar in our churches, and we should do so immediately. I believe we should train our people so they mature to the point that we can consider the great theological debates between Augustine and Pelagius, Luther/Calvin and Erasmus, Calvinists and Arminians.

I also believe we should help them mature to the point that we can familiarize them with the five points of Calvinism, the humanism of the Enlightenment, and the destructive criticism of rationalism/antisupernaturalism and the Jesus Seminar.

Some may protest that these issues will be over their heads. I would strongly disagree. If our schools can teach our children chemistry and biology, physics and geology, algebra and geometry, political science and economics, then we can certainly teach them theology and apologetics, Christian ethics and philosophy. We, as the local church, can prepare them in advance for what they will encounter so that various ideologies can be carefully critiqued and extreme positions intelligently rejected for the errors they contain. Again, it requires a gradual and intentional maturing process —- you don't teach calculus to a first grader —- but to neglect this area is to fail in preparing them to deal with the critical theological and social challenges of our day.

6) Recognize that our Baptist Faith and Message 2000 is a well-constructed canopy under which varying perspectives on this issue can peacefully and helpfully co-exist. Pelagians, Arminians, and Open Theists will not feel at home in our Southern Baptist family. We will love them while also disagreeing with them. Is there a place for differing positions on the issues of election, the extent of the atonement and calling, as well as how we do missions, evangelism, and give the invitation? I am convinced that the answer is yes.

Further, I believe we will be the better for it theologically and practically as we engage each other in respectful and serious conversation. As one who considers himself to be a true compatibilist, affirming the majestic mystery of both divine sovereignty and human responsibility, I have been challenged and strengthened in my own theological understanding by those less reformed than I as well as those more reformed than I happen to be. Because of our passionate commitments to the glory of God, the Lordship of Christ, biblical authority, salvation by grace through faith, and the Great Commission, we work in wonderful harmony with each other, and I suspect we always will.

7) Finally, as a denomination we must devote as much passion and energy to studying the Word as we have to defending it. Let us be known for being rigorously biblical, searching the Scriptures to determine what God really says on this and other key doctrinal issues. For the most part, we are not doing this, and our theological shallowness is an indictment of our current state and an embarrassment to our history! Furthermore, let none of us seek to be recognized so much for being Calvinists -- five-point, modified, or otherwise -- but rather for being thoroughgoing Biblicists and devoted followers of Jesus Christ!

Conclusion

The great Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon was a five-point Calvinist. He was also a passionate evangelist and soul winner. On August 1, 1858, he preached a sermon entitled, "Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility." The words of wisdom that flowed from his mouth on that day could only come from a capable pastor/theologian with a shepherd's heart and a love for the lost. We would do well to heed the counsel of this Baptist hero upon whose shoulders we stand today.

"I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no precedence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.... You ask me to reconcile the two. I answer, they do not want any reconcilement; I never tried to reconcile them to myself, because I could never see a discrepancy.... Both are true; no two truths can be inconsistent with each other; and what you have to do is to believe them both."

Here is a good place to stand. Here is a theology we can all affirm in service to our Savior.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
. Me : Does Jesus ever say that [We're saved by His righteousness, and not our own] in the Gospels?

You : Will Paul suffice?

Are you saying that Paul and Jesus taught two different Gospels? And yet, we don't find ANYWHERE Jesus saying that man is not responsible for being righteous or obeying the Commandments.

As I have said before, I believe it is NOT an either God does all or man does all situation. It is a "both". We work together during a particular situation. Christ is in us moving our will and desire to do pleasing acts of love - while we agree with our Lord to do them. We are never forced to do any good works of love. BUT we are also held responsible for refusing to follow the promptings of our Lord. Thus, we can not boast - the works are not ours ALONE. But they are ALSO not Christ's ALONE, either. Otherwise, what is the point of our particular judgment after our deaths?

Both Jesus and Paul agree that we can do nothing good alone. And both Jesus and Paul agree that man is responsible for their actions and are expected to follow the Will of the Father through faith.

We are saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

It is more than that. We are regenerated, given the Spirit to do good. We are not given merely a legal status, but we are enabled to actually be righteous in our Father's eyes, just as Abraham was. Does Paul mention that Christ's righteousness covered Abraham, or was it HIS righteousness (presumably 'in' God)?

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

"...therefore, [his faith] was also attributed unto him as righteousness" Romans 4:22

Man is given credit for faith working through love. We know this doesn't come from man alone. But we also see that man is credited with this work. Thus, we see that God and man work together to produce a righteous act. This corresponds to our human experience.

Regards

321 posted on 04/09/2006 8:47:33 AM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: blue-duncan
The scriptures are clear that we have no righteousness except that of Jesus.

Your verses do not dismiss man's responsibility to turn to Christ, to obey the Commandments in love.

Christ says OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. In Matthew 5-7, He then proceeds to tell us exactly HOW our righteousness would exceed theirs. Jesus never talks about HIS righteousness covering anything. Also, Jesus tells us that we can do NO good without Him. He MUST abide in us, and we must abide in the "vine" to bear fruit. For us to do any good work, then, we must be "in Christ", as Paul says over and over. However, WE are indeed given considered righteous in our Father's eyes when we work in love (not work in the law):

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

"...therefore, [his faith] was also attributed unto him as righteousness" Romans 4:22

God sees Abraham as being righteous PRECISELY because Abraham's faith is working in love. He is following God's prompting of his will and desire to be pleasing to God. As a good Father, our Lord is pleased with His children's imperfect attempts to reach out to Him in love. He is pleased that we are accepting His graces and turning to Him. Upon our regeneration in the Spirit, we are enabled to follow God's will, to hear His voice, and to obey His commandments in love - to the fullest extent as taught by our Lord on the Sermon on the Mount.

Regards

322 posted on 04/09/2006 8:57:41 AM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: blue-duncan; All
The scriptures are clear that we have no righteousness except that of Jesus.

Tts 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



If I may add to your comments...

A.W. Tozer once said, "A real Christian expects to go to Heaven on the virtue of another."

In Genesis 18:25 the question is asked, "Shall not the Judge of all th earth deal justly"? We who accept the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior who dies in our place, are justified, at peace with God, and spared from penalty for our unrighteousness.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1

We know that all are sinners according to Romans 3:23. So, how can God declare someone righteous who is unrighteous? How can He acquit a man who falls short and maintain His integrity? That process starts and ends with the Godhead. God is just and justifier of those who believe. (Romans 3:26) Every one of us are violators of the law. Yet, God satisfied the demands of the law through Christ Jesus. The Judge Himself took the place of the condemned. It is through Christ that we have life and our righteousness.
323 posted on 04/09/2006 9:51:00 AM PDT by jer33 3
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Perhaps because men have always sought to be god and that is reflected in their desdire to save themselves


324 posted on 04/10/2006 8:10:42 AM PDT by ears_to_hear ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see. ")
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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg

"Jesus never talks about HIS righteousness covering anything."

Paul sees it differently:

1Cr 1:29 "That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."


325 posted on 04/10/2006 11:52:48 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
I wrote : Jesus never talks about HIS righteousness covering anything."

You responded : Paul sees it differently, quoting me 1 Cor 1:29...

You and Dr. E both use the same verse to tell me what Jesus taught - by quoting Paul...?

She responded to me in #318 and I responded to this verse in #321. You may refer to that post. I would like to reiterate that I said "JESUS never talks about HIS righteousness covering anything" It seems that if the ultimate revelation of God had meant for HIS work to cover everything we do, He would have mentioned it at least once? Jesus work of redemption re-establishes the relationship between mankind and God. But it is the individual man's deeds of love that will be judged in the end, not Christ's work.

I believe you are misunderstanding Paul, since Paul does not teach a Gospel different then Christ. I would like to point out to you from 1 Cor 1:29 that Paul says "IN CHRIST". That is the operative word. When in Christ, we are no longer "in the flesh", we are regenerated in the Spirit. We are new creations! Through Christ, I become righteous, just as Abraham was noted as being righteous. Jesus is not judged! WE are judged based on OUR deeds of faith in Christ.

Regards

326 posted on 04/10/2006 12:10:22 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg

"I believe you are misunderstanding Paul, since Paul does not teach a Gospel different then Christ. I would like to point out to you from 1 Cor 1:29 that Paul says "IN CHRIST". That is the operative word. When in Christ, we are no longer "in the flesh", we are regenerated in the Spirit."

I haven't been folowing this thread for some time, so forgive me if this has already been discussed but Paul dealt with this problem with the Galation church when the Judiaisers came down from Jerusalem and tried to convince them of the same things you are saying.

Gal 3:1 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.

Gal 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Yes, believers will be judged for their works:

1Cr 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"

That judgment has to do with rewards, not one's salvation.


327 posted on 04/10/2006 12:42:50 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
First, thanks for your insights...

I am not sure what you are getting at by citing Galatians 2:16 and 3:1. I do not believe that one can work their way to heaven. We will be judged by our work in the Spirit, which WE cannot boast over. But just the same, we are measured based on our response to God - whether we repented, believed, and loved under God's influence or not. I agree that Paul attacks the Judaizers, who believed that they could EARN their way to heaven WITHOUT the Spirit or Jesus' Passion and Death on the Cross.

That judgment has to do with rewards, not one's salvation.

With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you. I will cite Scriptures to show you that this is a Protestant fallacy.

Scripture does not teach that judgment of rewards in heaven is separate from judgment to heaven or hell, nor that God judges merely for the sake of rewards in heaven. In EVERY passage that talks about judgment, the purpose is to determine man’s final destination of a person. God will judge one’s works for whether they will enter heaven or hell. There is no avoiding Scripture on this account. Also of note, there is not a New Testament passage that concerns final judgment and marks faith alone as a requirement for entering heaven.

Let’s look at some of Jesus’ teachings on the matter of judgment…

Marvel not at this, for an hour shall come when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and those that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but those that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28-29

He that rejects me and does not receive my words has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward everyone according to their works. Mat 16:27

Then he shall answer them, (those who did not do good deeds to others) saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of my brothers, ye did [it] not to me. And they shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Mat 25:45-46

Jesus even mentions a few other parables that discuss the heaven or hell aspect of final judgment…

The kingdom of the heavens is likened unto a man who sows good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went away. But when the blade was sprung up and brought forth fruit, then the tares appeared also. So the servants of the husband of the house came and said unto him, Lord, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? From where then does it have tares? He said unto them, [The] enemy, a man, has done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, No, lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.... the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and those who do iniquity and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Mat 13:24-30, 40-43

Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind [of fish], which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth and separate the wicked from among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:47-50

The kingdom of the heavens is like unto a certain man, a king, who made a marriage [feast] for his son and sent forth his servants to call those that were invited to the wedding, and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my bulls and [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready; come unto the marriage. But they made light of [it] and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise, and the others took his servants and entreated [them] spitefully and slew [them]. But when the king heard [of this], he became angry and sent forth his armies and destroyed those murderers and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, The wedding is ready, but those who were called were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the entrances of the highways and call as many as ye shall find to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together everyone that they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was filled with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who did not have on a wedding garment, and he said unto him, Friend, how didst thou come in here not having a wedding garment? (good deeds, according to Revelation) And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot and take him away and cast [him] into the darkness outside; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Mat 22:2-14

Then shall the kingdom of the heavens be likened unto ten virgins who, taking their lamps, went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were prudent, and five [were] foolish. Those that [were] foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them; but the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the prudent, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered, saying, Lest there be not enough for us and you, but go ye rather to them that sell and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and those that were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes. Mat 25:1-13

Paul also clearly teaches judgment based on works that determine whether one goes to heaven or hell:

the righteous judgment of God, who will render to everyone according to his deeds: to those who persevered in well doing, glory and honour and incorruption, to those who seek eternal life; but unto those that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. Tribulation and anguish [shall be] upon every human soul that does evil Romans 2:5-9

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou belittle thy brother? for we shall all stand before the tribunal of the Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:10-12

I'll touch a bit on Romans 14 later

Therefore we also procure, whether present or absent, that we may please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive according to that which they have done in the body, good or evil. Therefore being certain of that terror of the Lord, we persuade men; 2 Cor 5:9-11

Now, you may try to confine these passages of Paul (and 1 Cor 3:12-15) to a judgment of Christians in which their works are judged to determine the degree of personal reward in heaven - while a lackluster Christian would receive no “rewards” but merely a loss of these personal rewards. However, this makes a presumption that is not held by Scriptures… You must make a distinction between “sin” and “bad works”, since you claim that one is already justified by faith alone in Christ, and CANNOT be judged for sin without creating a contradiction.

Unfortunately for this theology, it has a major problem. NEVER does Scripture make the distinction between “sin” and “bad works”. EVERY time bad deeds are mentioned, they are always in the context of sin. Thus, those who hold this opinion will not define what exactly IS a “bad deed”, preferring to leave it an ambiguous statement made on completely arbitrary grounds. Since Protestantism claims that we are not judged by our sins, the only possible thing left to do is categorize “BAD DEEDS” as something other than “SIN”. There is not the a warrant for making such a distinction, and thus, this completely falls apart.

Here are a few examples of this concept found in 1 Corinthians 1-4 (which includes your 1 Cor 3:12-15 verse). Throughout, Paul considers the Corinthian’s behavior of dissent and dissolution to be anything but “non-sinful”! It is precisely because of the Corinthian’s sins that God could ultimately “destroy” them for destroying His church. (1 Cor 3:17 – if anyone destroys God’s Temple (US!), God will DESTROY HIM!, for God’s Temple is sacred, and YOU are that Temple.) The very next set of verses has Paul calling the Corinthians foolish for their dissenting living… Thus, your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:12-15 is directly contradicted by 1 Cor 3:17! If anything, 1 Cor 3:12-15 is talking about a “purgation” that cleanses those not quite pure.

Romans 14 conveys the same message of sin in the midst of the Church. As in 1 Cor 3, Romans 14 does not support the view that Christians will not be subject to the judgment of heaven or hell, but merely “good deeds” vs. “bad deeds”. Again, Paul in Rom 13:13 to 15:4 is getting on the Romans for their destructive behavior among the brothers. Especially Romans 14:10-12, we can only conclude that this dissension and jealousy, sinful desires, are being evaluated at the JUDGMENT SEAT of Christ! Judging, destroying, not acting in love, putting stumbling blocks in the way of others - all will receive harsh judgment from God, just as Paul told the Corinthians, they too could be destroyed. I would like you to note, also, who Paul is quoting in Romans 14:11 (Is 45:23). Isaiah clearly is speaking of judgment to either damnation or righteousness. There is no “lower” or “higher” rewards here, or anywhere else in Scriptures…

The idea that God will judge Christians to ONLY rewards is entirely false and invented to maintain the theology of "faith alone", another construct not found in Scriptures.

Regards

328 posted on 04/10/2006 7:45:37 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: jude24; jo kus; Jerry_M; the_doc; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; xzins
I know, if I am one of the Elect, (then) I will not fall away - because God knows those who are his, and is able to sustain them, even when their feet almost slip (cf. Ps. 73).

Jude's framing of the Calvinist Doctrine of "The Preservation of the Saints" is basically correct (I took the liberty of re-emphasizing it as a straightforward IF-THEN equation for the sake of precision).

The Elect cannot fall away from their Reward in Heaven because the Father, at the Cross, applied the Judiciary Merits of Christ's Atonement (which are, by definition, Infinite and Indefectible) to the Judicial Account of all His Elect... for the Father to NOT bring Home all of His Elect, then, would be to deny the Infinite and Indefectible Value of Christ's Atonement.

However, speaking from Biblical teaching (and some occasional hard personal experience), it is certainly possible for any of the Elect to "fall away" from God, at least temporarily, during our passage through this mortal coil -- denying ourselves (either through lack of Trust in His Providence, or our own weakness for the Lusts of the flesh) the preliminary benefits which He offers us in This World.

The Father, being unable to be an Unjust Judge and thus out of respect for the Perfect Atonement performed by His Son on behalf of His Elect, will infallibly bring Home to Heaven every single one of His Chosen Elect; but God the Father works on His Own time, acoording to His Own purposes -- and He is not above allowing any one of His Chosen Elect to wander through the roadside brambles and be waylaid by theives and swindlers and highwaymen before He infallibly drags His Elect back onto the Narrow Path ("The Lord Preserves His Saints", cf. Psalm 31, Psalm 97). He chastens those whom He loves, and He is not averse to permitting a few painful "teaching experiences" along the Way.

Also, Jude is correct about the matter of "Presumption". My Calvinist-Baptist FRiend "The_Doc" has always said that he considers the "once-saved/always-saved" doctrine of the so-called "One-Point-Calvinist Free-Will Baptists" to be among the most pernicious evolutions of Arminian dogma ever inflicted upon the (formerly 100% Predestinarian) Baptist Church, combining as it does the Arminian dogma of "proclaim a one-time free-will 'Decision-for-God', and you will be Saved" with the dogma that "once you're in, you're in", resulting in the "Carnal Christian" belief that if someone has ever walked the aisle at a Billy Graham Crusade, they're "in like Flynn" and thus Saved Evermore. I myself have met at least a couple of professing "Calviminians" who, when you get right down to it, don't care about God's Predestination at all; they simply want the psychological assurance that their one-time, free-will "Decision for God" is an everlasting insurance policy.

Personally, I think that my "Old School" Baptist preacher FRiend "Jerry_M" said it best: "I believe in His Promises unto them that Believe; I believe that His Spirit testifies with mine; and I try to do my best, with His help, for the advancement of His Kingdom. NONETHELESS, I know also that my own heart is deceitful above all things; and if it should be judged, at the End of Days, that I have been acting out of my own Self-Righteousness and am not among His Elect fore-ordained to Heaven -- well, then, I know also that His Judgments are True and Righteous altogether; and even if He destroys me, yet I will trust in Him." (Since I am here quoting my own paraphrase of Jerry_M's postings, he is welcome to correct me; but I think I have it about right).

In fact, as Jude suggests, Salvific Presumption is antithetical to the letter and spirit of Calvin's Institutes. The right attitude for any Calvinist is:

"Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." -- Luke 17:9-10, KJV

Best, OP

329 posted on 04/13/2006 4:18:29 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

No need to correct you, you have correctly quoted my thoughts on the subject. Possibly you have framed them in more eloquent language than I first utilized, but you have correctly captured my thoughts on the subject.

Sorry to be absent so long, I have been very, very busy, and my internet browsing time has been severly curtailed. Not that it will get any better anytime soon, but Aslan is afoot in the land, and His work is fulfilling. He is not a tame lion, but He is good.


330 posted on 04/22/2006 12:28:22 PM PDT by Jerry_M (I can only say that I am a poor sinner, trusting in Christ alone for salvation. -- Gen. Robt E. Lee)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Let's be honest about Armininism. The Arminian god is like a filling station owner standing beside his pump of salvation.The station is surrounded by signs stating free gas,love everybody,I'll never stop waiting,and let me be your teddy bear. But all that power is powerless until the powerful sinner drives in and says "fill me up". Then the obedient attendent wipes the windows,checks the tires,and fills the tank with gratitude in his heart. This is very appealing to the sinner since it gives him power over the very power of God. But alas,then he gets the sad news that he can run out of gas on his way to glory. The same free-will that got him in can get him out whenever he chooses. Certainly proving that a salvation dependent on the will of a sinner is totally undependable.


331 posted on 08/27/2006 1:38:47 PM PDT by lovecalvin
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To: lovecalvin
LOL. Great analogy. And during times of gas shortages, Arminianism is a real frightening prospect. The pump just might run dry. 8~)

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism." -- J.H. Merle d'Aubigne (The Reformation in England, London, 1962, Vol. 1, p.98)

"No more soul-destroying doctrine could well be devised than the doctrine that sinners can regenerate themselves, and repent and believe just when they please…As it is a truth both of Scripture and of experience that the unrenewed man can do nothing of himself to secure his salvation, it is essential that he should be brought to a practical conviction of that truth. When thus convicted, and not before, he seeks help from the only source whence it can be obtained." -- Charles Hodge (Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids, 1970, Vol. 2, p. 277)


332 posted on 08/27/2006 1:58:24 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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