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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg

"I believe you are misunderstanding Paul, since Paul does not teach a Gospel different then Christ. I would like to point out to you from 1 Cor 1:29 that Paul says "IN CHRIST". That is the operative word. When in Christ, we are no longer "in the flesh", we are regenerated in the Spirit."

I haven't been folowing this thread for some time, so forgive me if this has already been discussed but Paul dealt with this problem with the Galation church when the Judiaisers came down from Jerusalem and tried to convince them of the same things you are saying.

Gal 3:1 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.

Gal 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Yes, believers will be judged for their works:

1Cr 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"

That judgment has to do with rewards, not one's salvation.


327 posted on 04/10/2006 12:42:50 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
First, thanks for your insights...

I am not sure what you are getting at by citing Galatians 2:16 and 3:1. I do not believe that one can work their way to heaven. We will be judged by our work in the Spirit, which WE cannot boast over. But just the same, we are measured based on our response to God - whether we repented, believed, and loved under God's influence or not. I agree that Paul attacks the Judaizers, who believed that they could EARN their way to heaven WITHOUT the Spirit or Jesus' Passion and Death on the Cross.

That judgment has to do with rewards, not one's salvation.

With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you. I will cite Scriptures to show you that this is a Protestant fallacy.

Scripture does not teach that judgment of rewards in heaven is separate from judgment to heaven or hell, nor that God judges merely for the sake of rewards in heaven. In EVERY passage that talks about judgment, the purpose is to determine man’s final destination of a person. God will judge one’s works for whether they will enter heaven or hell. There is no avoiding Scripture on this account. Also of note, there is not a New Testament passage that concerns final judgment and marks faith alone as a requirement for entering heaven.

Let’s look at some of Jesus’ teachings on the matter of judgment…

Marvel not at this, for an hour shall come when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and those that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but those that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28-29

He that rejects me and does not receive my words has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward everyone according to their works. Mat 16:27

Then he shall answer them, (those who did not do good deeds to others) saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of my brothers, ye did [it] not to me. And they shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Mat 25:45-46

Jesus even mentions a few other parables that discuss the heaven or hell aspect of final judgment…

The kingdom of the heavens is likened unto a man who sows good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went away. But when the blade was sprung up and brought forth fruit, then the tares appeared also. So the servants of the husband of the house came and said unto him, Lord, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? From where then does it have tares? He said unto them, [The] enemy, a man, has done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, No, lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.... the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and those who do iniquity and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Mat 13:24-30, 40-43

Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind [of fish], which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth and separate the wicked from among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:47-50

The kingdom of the heavens is like unto a certain man, a king, who made a marriage [feast] for his son and sent forth his servants to call those that were invited to the wedding, and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my bulls and [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready; come unto the marriage. But they made light of [it] and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise, and the others took his servants and entreated [them] spitefully and slew [them]. But when the king heard [of this], he became angry and sent forth his armies and destroyed those murderers and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, The wedding is ready, but those who were called were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the entrances of the highways and call as many as ye shall find to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together everyone that they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was filled with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who did not have on a wedding garment, and he said unto him, Friend, how didst thou come in here not having a wedding garment? (good deeds, according to Revelation) And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot and take him away and cast [him] into the darkness outside; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Mat 22:2-14

Then shall the kingdom of the heavens be likened unto ten virgins who, taking their lamps, went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were prudent, and five [were] foolish. Those that [were] foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them; but the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the prudent, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered, saying, Lest there be not enough for us and you, but go ye rather to them that sell and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and those that were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes. Mat 25:1-13

Paul also clearly teaches judgment based on works that determine whether one goes to heaven or hell:

the righteous judgment of God, who will render to everyone according to his deeds: to those who persevered in well doing, glory and honour and incorruption, to those who seek eternal life; but unto those that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. Tribulation and anguish [shall be] upon every human soul that does evil Romans 2:5-9

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou belittle thy brother? for we shall all stand before the tribunal of the Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:10-12

I'll touch a bit on Romans 14 later

Therefore we also procure, whether present or absent, that we may please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive according to that which they have done in the body, good or evil. Therefore being certain of that terror of the Lord, we persuade men; 2 Cor 5:9-11

Now, you may try to confine these passages of Paul (and 1 Cor 3:12-15) to a judgment of Christians in which their works are judged to determine the degree of personal reward in heaven - while a lackluster Christian would receive no “rewards” but merely a loss of these personal rewards. However, this makes a presumption that is not held by Scriptures… You must make a distinction between “sin” and “bad works”, since you claim that one is already justified by faith alone in Christ, and CANNOT be judged for sin without creating a contradiction.

Unfortunately for this theology, it has a major problem. NEVER does Scripture make the distinction between “sin” and “bad works”. EVERY time bad deeds are mentioned, they are always in the context of sin. Thus, those who hold this opinion will not define what exactly IS a “bad deed”, preferring to leave it an ambiguous statement made on completely arbitrary grounds. Since Protestantism claims that we are not judged by our sins, the only possible thing left to do is categorize “BAD DEEDS” as something other than “SIN”. There is not the a warrant for making such a distinction, and thus, this completely falls apart.

Here are a few examples of this concept found in 1 Corinthians 1-4 (which includes your 1 Cor 3:12-15 verse). Throughout, Paul considers the Corinthian’s behavior of dissent and dissolution to be anything but “non-sinful”! It is precisely because of the Corinthian’s sins that God could ultimately “destroy” them for destroying His church. (1 Cor 3:17 – if anyone destroys God’s Temple (US!), God will DESTROY HIM!, for God’s Temple is sacred, and YOU are that Temple.) The very next set of verses has Paul calling the Corinthians foolish for their dissenting living… Thus, your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:12-15 is directly contradicted by 1 Cor 3:17! If anything, 1 Cor 3:12-15 is talking about a “purgation” that cleanses those not quite pure.

Romans 14 conveys the same message of sin in the midst of the Church. As in 1 Cor 3, Romans 14 does not support the view that Christians will not be subject to the judgment of heaven or hell, but merely “good deeds” vs. “bad deeds”. Again, Paul in Rom 13:13 to 15:4 is getting on the Romans for their destructive behavior among the brothers. Especially Romans 14:10-12, we can only conclude that this dissension and jealousy, sinful desires, are being evaluated at the JUDGMENT SEAT of Christ! Judging, destroying, not acting in love, putting stumbling blocks in the way of others - all will receive harsh judgment from God, just as Paul told the Corinthians, they too could be destroyed. I would like you to note, also, who Paul is quoting in Romans 14:11 (Is 45:23). Isaiah clearly is speaking of judgment to either damnation or righteousness. There is no “lower” or “higher” rewards here, or anywhere else in Scriptures…

The idea that God will judge Christians to ONLY rewards is entirely false and invented to maintain the theology of "faith alone", another construct not found in Scriptures.

Regards

328 posted on 04/10/2006 7:45:37 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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