Posted on 04/05/2006 9:20:50 AM PDT by Between the Lines
You : Will Paul suffice?
Are you saying that Paul and Jesus taught two different Gospels? And yet, we don't find ANYWHERE Jesus saying that man is not responsible for being righteous or obeying the Commandments.
As I have said before, I believe it is NOT an either God does all or man does all situation. It is a "both". We work together during a particular situation. Christ is in us moving our will and desire to do pleasing acts of love - while we agree with our Lord to do them. We are never forced to do any good works of love. BUT we are also held responsible for refusing to follow the promptings of our Lord. Thus, we can not boast - the works are not ours ALONE. But they are ALSO not Christ's ALONE, either. Otherwise, what is the point of our particular judgment after our deaths?
Both Jesus and Paul agree that we can do nothing good alone. And both Jesus and Paul agree that man is responsible for their actions and are expected to follow the Will of the Father through faith.
We are saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ.
It is more than that. We are regenerated, given the Spirit to do good. We are not given merely a legal status, but we are enabled to actually be righteous in our Father's eyes, just as Abraham was. Does Paul mention that Christ's righteousness covered Abraham, or was it HIS righteousness (presumably 'in' God)?
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3
"...therefore, [his faith] was also attributed unto him as righteousness" Romans 4:22
Man is given credit for faith working through love. We know this doesn't come from man alone. But we also see that man is credited with this work. Thus, we see that God and man work together to produce a righteous act. This corresponds to our human experience.
Regards
Your verses do not dismiss man's responsibility to turn to Christ, to obey the Commandments in love.
Christ says OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. In Matthew 5-7, He then proceeds to tell us exactly HOW our righteousness would exceed theirs. Jesus never talks about HIS righteousness covering anything. Also, Jesus tells us that we can do NO good without Him. He MUST abide in us, and we must abide in the "vine" to bear fruit. For us to do any good work, then, we must be "in Christ", as Paul says over and over. However, WE are indeed given considered righteous in our Father's eyes when we work in love (not work in the law):
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3
"...therefore, [his faith] was also attributed unto him as righteousness" Romans 4:22
God sees Abraham as being righteous PRECISELY because Abraham's faith is working in love. He is following God's prompting of his will and desire to be pleasing to God. As a good Father, our Lord is pleased with His children's imperfect attempts to reach out to Him in love. He is pleased that we are accepting His graces and turning to Him. Upon our regeneration in the Spirit, we are enabled to follow God's will, to hear His voice, and to obey His commandments in love - to the fullest extent as taught by our Lord on the Sermon on the Mount.
Regards
Perhaps because men have always sought to be god and that is reflected in their desdire to save themselves
"Jesus never talks about HIS righteousness covering anything."
Paul sees it differently:
1Cr 1:29 "That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
You responded : Paul sees it differently, quoting me 1 Cor 1:29...
You and Dr. E both use the same verse to tell me what Jesus taught - by quoting Paul...?
She responded to me in #318 and I responded to this verse in #321. You may refer to that post. I would like to reiterate that I said "JESUS never talks about HIS righteousness covering anything" It seems that if the ultimate revelation of God had meant for HIS work to cover everything we do, He would have mentioned it at least once? Jesus work of redemption re-establishes the relationship between mankind and God. But it is the individual man's deeds of love that will be judged in the end, not Christ's work.
I believe you are misunderstanding Paul, since Paul does not teach a Gospel different then Christ. I would like to point out to you from 1 Cor 1:29 that Paul says "IN CHRIST". That is the operative word. When in Christ, we are no longer "in the flesh", we are regenerated in the Spirit. We are new creations! Through Christ, I become righteous, just as Abraham was noted as being righteous. Jesus is not judged! WE are judged based on OUR deeds of faith in Christ.
Regards
"I believe you are misunderstanding Paul, since Paul does not teach a Gospel different then Christ. I would like to point out to you from 1 Cor 1:29 that Paul says "IN CHRIST". That is the operative word. When in Christ, we are no longer "in the flesh", we are regenerated in the Spirit."
I haven't been folowing this thread for some time, so forgive me if this has already been discussed but Paul dealt with this problem with the Galation church when the Judiaisers came down from Jerusalem and tried to convince them of the same things you are saying.
Gal 3:1 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Yes, believers will be judged for their works:
1Cr 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"
That judgment has to do with rewards, not one's salvation.
I am not sure what you are getting at by citing Galatians 2:16 and 3:1. I do not believe that one can work their way to heaven. We will be judged by our work in the Spirit, which WE cannot boast over. But just the same, we are measured based on our response to God - whether we repented, believed, and loved under God's influence or not. I agree that Paul attacks the Judaizers, who believed that they could EARN their way to heaven WITHOUT the Spirit or Jesus' Passion and Death on the Cross.
That judgment has to do with rewards, not one's salvation.
With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you. I will cite Scriptures to show you that this is a Protestant fallacy.
Scripture does not teach that judgment of rewards in heaven is separate from judgment to heaven or hell, nor that God judges merely for the sake of rewards in heaven. In EVERY passage that talks about judgment, the purpose is to determine man’s final destination of a person. God will judge one’s works for whether they will enter heaven or hell. There is no avoiding Scripture on this account. Also of note, there is not a New Testament passage that concerns final judgment and marks faith alone as a requirement for entering heaven.
Let’s look at some of Jesus’ teachings on the matter of judgment…
Marvel not at this, for an hour shall come when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and those that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but those that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28-29
He that rejects me and does not receive my words has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward everyone according to their works. Mat 16:27
Then he shall answer them, (those who did not do good deeds to others) saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of my brothers, ye did [it] not to me. And they shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Mat 25:45-46
Jesus even mentions a few other parables that discuss the heaven or hell aspect of final judgment…
The kingdom of the heavens is likened unto a man who sows good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went away. But when the blade was sprung up and brought forth fruit, then the tares appeared also. So the servants of the husband of the house came and said unto him, Lord, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? From where then does it have tares? He said unto them, [The] enemy, a man, has done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, No, lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.... the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and those who do iniquity and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Mat 13:24-30, 40-43
Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind [of fish], which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth and separate the wicked from among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:47-50
The kingdom of the heavens is like unto a certain man, a king, who made a marriage [feast] for his son and sent forth his servants to call those that were invited to the wedding, and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my bulls and [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready; come unto the marriage. But they made light of [it] and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise, and the others took his servants and entreated [them] spitefully and slew [them]. But when the king heard [of this], he became angry and sent forth his armies and destroyed those murderers and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, The wedding is ready, but those who were called were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the entrances of the highways and call as many as ye shall find to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together everyone that they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was filled with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who did not have on a wedding garment, and he said unto him, Friend, how didst thou come in here not having a wedding garment? (good deeds, according to Revelation) And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot and take him away and cast [him] into the darkness outside; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Mat 22:2-14
Then shall the kingdom of the heavens be likened unto ten virgins who, taking their lamps, went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were prudent, and five [were] foolish. Those that [were] foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them; but the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the prudent, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered, saying, Lest there be not enough for us and you, but go ye rather to them that sell and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and those that were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes. Mat 25:1-13
Paul also clearly teaches judgment based on works that determine whether one goes to heaven or hell:
the righteous judgment of God, who will render to everyone according to his deeds: to those who persevered in well doing, glory and honour and incorruption, to those who seek eternal life; but unto those that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. Tribulation and anguish [shall be] upon every human soul that does evil Romans 2:5-9
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou belittle thy brother? for we shall all stand before the tribunal of the Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:10-12
I'll touch a bit on Romans 14 later
Therefore we also procure, whether present or absent, that we may please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive according to that which they have done in the body, good or evil. Therefore being certain of that terror of the Lord, we persuade men; 2 Cor 5:9-11
Now, you may try to confine these passages of Paul (and 1 Cor 3:12-15) to a judgment of Christians in which their works are judged to determine the degree of personal reward in heaven - while a lackluster Christian would receive no “rewards” but merely a loss of these personal rewards. However, this makes a presumption that is not held by Scriptures… You must make a distinction between “sin” and “bad works”, since you claim that one is already justified by faith alone in Christ, and CANNOT be judged for sin without creating a contradiction.
Unfortunately for this theology, it has a major problem. NEVER does Scripture make the distinction between “sin” and “bad works”. EVERY time bad deeds are mentioned, they are always in the context of sin. Thus, those who hold this opinion will not define what exactly IS a “bad deed”, preferring to leave it an ambiguous statement made on completely arbitrary grounds. Since Protestantism claims that we are not judged by our sins, the only possible thing left to do is categorize “BAD DEEDS” as something other than “SIN”. There is not the a warrant for making such a distinction, and thus, this completely falls apart.
Here are a few examples of this concept found in 1 Corinthians 1-4 (which includes your 1 Cor 3:12-15 verse). Throughout, Paul considers the Corinthian’s behavior of dissent and dissolution to be anything but “non-sinful”! It is precisely because of the Corinthian’s sins that God could ultimately “destroy” them for destroying His church. (1 Cor 3:17 – if anyone destroys God’s Temple (US!), God will DESTROY HIM!, for God’s Temple is sacred, and YOU are that Temple.) The very next set of verses has Paul calling the Corinthians foolish for their dissenting living… Thus, your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:12-15 is directly contradicted by 1 Cor 3:17! If anything, 1 Cor 3:12-15 is talking about a “purgation” that cleanses those not quite pure.
Romans 14 conveys the same message of sin in the midst of the Church. As in 1 Cor 3, Romans 14 does not support the view that Christians will not be subject to the judgment of heaven or hell, but merely “good deeds” vs. “bad deeds”. Again, Paul in Rom 13:13 to 15:4 is getting on the Romans for their destructive behavior among the brothers. Especially Romans 14:10-12, we can only conclude that this dissension and jealousy, sinful desires, are being evaluated at the JUDGMENT SEAT of Christ! Judging, destroying, not acting in love, putting stumbling blocks in the way of others - all will receive harsh judgment from God, just as Paul told the Corinthians, they too could be destroyed. I would like you to note, also, who Paul is quoting in Romans 14:11 (Is 45:23). Isaiah clearly is speaking of judgment to either damnation or righteousness. There is no “lower” or “higher” rewards here, or anywhere else in Scriptures…
The idea that God will judge Christians to ONLY rewards is entirely false and invented to maintain the theology of "faith alone", another construct not found in Scriptures.
Regards
Jude's framing of the Calvinist Doctrine of "The Preservation of the Saints" is basically correct (I took the liberty of re-emphasizing it as a straightforward IF-THEN equation for the sake of precision).
The Elect cannot fall away from their Reward in Heaven because the Father, at the Cross, applied the Judiciary Merits of Christ's Atonement (which are, by definition, Infinite and Indefectible) to the Judicial Account of all His Elect... for the Father to NOT bring Home all of His Elect, then, would be to deny the Infinite and Indefectible Value of Christ's Atonement.
However, speaking from Biblical teaching (and some occasional hard personal experience), it is certainly possible for any of the Elect to "fall away" from God, at least temporarily, during our passage through this mortal coil -- denying ourselves (either through lack of Trust in His Providence, or our own weakness for the Lusts of the flesh) the preliminary benefits which He offers us in This World.
The Father, being unable to be an Unjust Judge and thus out of respect for the Perfect Atonement performed by His Son on behalf of His Elect, will infallibly bring Home to Heaven every single one of His Chosen Elect; but God the Father works on His Own time, acoording to His Own purposes -- and He is not above allowing any one of His Chosen Elect to wander through the roadside brambles and be waylaid by theives and swindlers and highwaymen before He infallibly drags His Elect back onto the Narrow Path ("The Lord Preserves His Saints", cf. Psalm 31, Psalm 97). He chastens those whom He loves, and He is not averse to permitting a few painful "teaching experiences" along the Way.
Also, Jude is correct about the matter of "Presumption". My Calvinist-Baptist FRiend "The_Doc" has always said that he considers the "once-saved/always-saved" doctrine of the so-called "One-Point-Calvinist Free-Will Baptists" to be among the most pernicious evolutions of Arminian dogma ever inflicted upon the (formerly 100% Predestinarian) Baptist Church, combining as it does the Arminian dogma of "proclaim a one-time free-will 'Decision-for-God', and you will be Saved" with the dogma that "once you're in, you're in", resulting in the "Carnal Christian" belief that if someone has ever walked the aisle at a Billy Graham Crusade, they're "in like Flynn" and thus Saved Evermore. I myself have met at least a couple of professing "Calviminians" who, when you get right down to it, don't care about God's Predestination at all; they simply want the psychological assurance that their one-time, free-will "Decision for God" is an everlasting insurance policy.
Personally, I think that my "Old School" Baptist preacher FRiend "Jerry_M" said it best: "I believe in His Promises unto them that Believe; I believe that His Spirit testifies with mine; and I try to do my best, with His help, for the advancement of His Kingdom. NONETHELESS, I know also that my own heart is deceitful above all things; and if it should be judged, at the End of Days, that I have been acting out of my own Self-Righteousness and am not among His Elect fore-ordained to Heaven -- well, then, I know also that His Judgments are True and Righteous altogether; and even if He destroys me, yet I will trust in Him." (Since I am here quoting my own paraphrase of Jerry_M's postings, he is welcome to correct me; but I think I have it about right).
In fact, as Jude suggests, Salvific Presumption is antithetical to the letter and spirit of Calvin's Institutes. The right attitude for any Calvinist is:
"Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." -- Luke 17:9-10, KJV
Best, OP
No need to correct you, you have correctly quoted my thoughts on the subject. Possibly you have framed them in more eloquent language than I first utilized, but you have correctly captured my thoughts on the subject.
Sorry to be absent so long, I have been very, very busy, and my internet browsing time has been severly curtailed. Not that it will get any better anytime soon, but Aslan is afoot in the land, and His work is fulfilling. He is not a tame lion, but He is good.
Let's be honest about Armininism. The Arminian god is like a filling station owner standing beside his pump of salvation.The station is surrounded by signs stating free gas,love everybody,I'll never stop waiting,and let me be your teddy bear. But all that power is powerless until the powerful sinner drives in and says "fill me up". Then the obedient attendent wipes the windows,checks the tires,and fills the tank with gratitude in his heart. This is very appealing to the sinner since it gives him power over the very power of God. But alas,then he gets the sad news that he can run out of gas on his way to glory. The same free-will that got him in can get him out whenever he chooses. Certainly proving that a salvation dependent on the will of a sinner is totally undependable.
"No more soul-destroying doctrine could well be devised than the doctrine that sinners can regenerate themselves, and repent and believe just when they please…As it is a truth both of Scripture and of experience that the unrenewed man can do nothing of himself to secure his salvation, it is essential that he should be brought to a practical conviction of that truth. When thus convicted, and not before, he seeks help from the only source whence it can be obtained." -- Charles Hodge (Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids, 1970, Vol. 2, p. 277) "To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism." -- J.H. Merle d'Aubigne (The Reformation in England, London, 1962, Vol. 1, p.98)
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