Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades

UK Times online ^ | March 20, 2006 | Richard Owen

[prairiebreeze]

THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity.

The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day “jihad against the Jews and Crusaders”.

The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim- Christian reconciliation by asking “pardon” for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations. But John Paul’s apologies for the past “errors of the Church” — including the Inquisition and anti-Semitism — irritated some Vatican conservatives. According to Vatican insiders, the dissenters included Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope Benedict reached out to Muslims and Jews after his election and called for dialogue. However, the Pope, who is due to visit Turkey in November, has in the past suggested that Turkey’s Muslim culture is at variance with Europe’s Christian roots.

At the conference, held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, Roberto De Mattei, an Italian historian, recalled that the Crusades were “a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places”.

“The debate has been reopened,” La Stampa said. Professor De Mattei noted that the desecration of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Muslim forces in 1009 had helped to provoke the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century, called by Pope Urban II.

He said that the Crusaders were “martyrs” who had “sacrificed their lives for the faith”. He was backed by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Dixie Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Cambridge University, who said that those who sought forgiveness for the Crusades “do not know their history”. Professor Riley-Smith has attacked Sir Ridley Scott’s recent film Kingdom of Heaven, starring Orlando Bloom, as “utter nonsense”.

Professor Riley-Smith said that the script, like much writing on the Crusades, was “historically inaccurate. It depicts the Muslims as civilised and the Crusaders as barbarians. It has nothing to do with reality.” It fuels Islamic fundamentalism by propagating “Osama bin Laden’s version of history”.

He said that the Crusaders were sometimes undisciplined and capable of acts of great cruelty. But the same was true of Muslims and of troops in “all ideological wars”. Some of the Crusaders’ worst excesses were against Orthodox Christians or heretics — as in the sack of Constantinople in 1204.

The American writer Robert Spencer, author of A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, told the conference that the mistaken view had taken hold in the West as well as the Arab world that the Crusades were “an unprovoked attack by Europe on the Islamic world”. In reality, however, Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem.

CONFLICT OVER THE HOLY LAND

Historians count eight Crusades, although dates are disputed: 1095-1101, called by Pope Urban II; 1145-47, led by Louis VII; 1188-92, led by Richard I; 1204, which included the sack of Constantinople; 1217, which included the conquest of Damietta; 1228-29 led by Frederick II; 1249-52, led by King Louis IX of France; and 1270, also under Louis IX

Until the early 11th century, Christians, Jews and Muslims coexisted under Muslim rule in the Holy Land. After growing friction, the first Crusade was sparked by ambushes of Christian pilgrims going to Jerusalem. The Byzantine Emperor Alexius appealed to Pope Urban II, who in 1095 called on Christendom to take up arms to free the Holy Land from the “Muslim infidel”

[madison10]

Note to self: Stay off of the Catholics Only threads. It would not matter what I said, or what Scripture I quoted, or what church father I follow, no one's mind will even consider an alternative--Mary & Joseph were husband and wife in the true sense of the word. Anything but would be contrary to God's plan for marriage. BTW, Calvin was a cult leader and should be ignored.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Do you also counsel battered women that they need to figure out how they are making their husbands mad?

[Cinnamon Girl]

Your seem to be responding to something other than my comment. What are you talking about?

[ScubieNuc]

Hey, don't sweat it. Your job is to "preach the Gospel." ( Mark 16:15)If they don't accept it, then...

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Sincerely

[Cinnamon Girl]

I just noticed this post and it is complete nonsense. Are you saying the church was right to demand that Jews convert to Catholicism? That may be your unfortunate opinion, but it obviously no longer shared by the church, and in fact, Pope Sixtus objected to the Inquisition at the time. Here's a quote from Paul Johnson's History of the Jews:

"The Inquisition sought all kinds of victims, but secret Jews were among the chief ones. In its whole existence it numbered a total of about 341,000 victims. Of these, more than 32,000 were killed by burning, 17,659 burned in effigy and 291,000 given lesser punishments. The great majority of those killed, some 20,226 suffered before 1540 under the first five inquistors-general, and most of them were of Jewish origin."

[SaltyJoe]

Sorry Verga, that statement wasn't directed to you. I apologize.

[annalex]

Matthew 1:25 indicates that Joseph and Miriam had relations after the birth of Y'shua.

No it doesn't, as it was explained to you each time you post this lie.

The origian for "till" (or "until" in your mickey-mouse translation) is "eos" and if you do a search for that word in the Greek original you will discover that it is used both when the situation changed to the opposite, as would be indicated by our "until", and also when it did not change at all, as "till", or "even to" would. The same Matthew, for example, writes that the field where Judas killed himself is called Field of Blood even to (eos) this day. Did they rename the field after Matthew wrote the Gospel?

We cannot infer anything about Mary and Joseph after Mary gave birth to Jesus.

You had multiple opportunities to educate yourself. I remember correcting you on this before. Please, stop lying about the Gospel.

[ccmay]

Who were Charles Martel and El Cid fighting against?

Roland, too.

But Torie is right that the most threatening Islamic incursions followed the Crusades. If not for the battles of Vienna and Lepanto, we would surely all be Muslims now.

-ccm

[ccmay]

I can trace my lineage to Charlemagne.

So can we all. (mathematically speaking).

-ccm

[SaltyJoe]

I like your post, and I promise you that I read the whole thing.

You've got some mad HTML skills with the red quotes. I really like that. I feel lucky enough to be able to post pics.

Jerusalem is perhaps the most important of all places in the world. That Jesus Sacrificed Himself there and had all of God's anger poured upon Him at Golgotha perhaps means that this Altar is indeed the center of All Creation. Of course Satan and all demonic forces would concentrate hardest to render a physical place defiled.

But a "cleansing of Jerusalem" is also a cleansing of our souls. We don't have the ability to wash away our own sins. Only Christ can do that. Even if we attain Communion with Christ, we are at best leaky sieves of God's Grace. We might attain Peace but lose it with a moment's distraction. On a larger scale, a city or nation could attain tranquility, yet lose it within a generation. Thus, "cleansing Jerusalem" with mere human hands would do little as history has already proved this futile.

We do, however, have a duty to Baptize the world in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The Sacraments, as instituted by Christ, build unity among peoples. Sin has created chaos and Satan exploits divisions where differences are Natural. Jesus explains why He has "established division" in His own words:

Luke 12:
49
"I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing!
50
There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!
51
Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
52
From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three;
53
a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

---
The division is not to cause men to fall to sin, but to have us fall on his knees for Christ's Mercy.

Christ divides us among Natural differences, like the friction of a father and son relationship, so that we'd learn more about the Nature of our Heavenly Father's forgiveness. If family were easy, then there's too much the temptation for a filiopiety or deification of family over Our True Creator. The division set against familiar hearts (as a son's heart might be adversely set against his father's will) is the familiar Tower of Babel Christ knocks over to keep us from being too proud. And it serves to teach us to forgive for it's far easier to forgive one that you love who is familiar in nature. In learning this Spiritual Love of Forgiveness, can it not also translate to extra-familiar forgiveness (forgiving enemies outside our bloodlines)?

---
The world cannot solve its problems just as we cannot win our own Salvation.

"Otherwise, a solidified Christian community would easily, and perhaps barbarically wipe out a culture whose members, many of which, don't deserve death."

Perhaps I should better explain, that a "Christian" community under leadership of men would twist the message of Christ and do more harm than good. I wouldn't bring up "atrocities" from America's history, since there's plenty invective speech here on FR directed toward adversaries (and even to each other). This is offensive enough in all eyes:

Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna."

Conversion of hearts doesn't come because of the threat of violence. Islam proves this. It's expansion has been very bloody. It's growth is mostly from natural population building upon conquered territories. Islam doesn't have the numbers for conversion that Christianity gained by means of non-violence and absolute humility.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.

Matthew 12: 18-21
"Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not contend or cry out, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory.
And in his name the Gentiles will hope." (Quoted in reference to Isaiah 42)

---
Why does Jesus push this Spiritual challenge of humility? Why not nuke all the opposition when we have the chance? Why shouldn't Christian preachers take up hundreds of concubines and spread their seed as far and wide as possible (after all, shouldn't it be good to be the king)?

Here's what Sunday's Reading was from St Paul from March 19:

1 Cor 1:22-25

Brothers and sisters:
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
but we proclaim Christ crucified,
a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom,
and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

The "foolishness" of the Roman Catholic Rite to keep its clergy celibate has witnessed not only the Catholic Church survive, but it's the fasting growing Rite of the Catholic Church! This should speak volumes to those who understand that when God's Spirit is present among a people, that group is truly Blessed as Indelible (just as the Jews nation is truly Indelible...that Jews exist proves that the God of Abraham IS). If the Vatican's leadership and celibate vows weren't blessed by God, I hardly think that the entire Church would have survived much less thrived. Thus, there's no need for priests to take up wives (and concubines) to sustain a priestly class with a replacement population. God provides with blessings measured, packed down, and over flowing.

That the American Catholic priesthood suffers in numbers is not a fault of the Catholic Church, but of Americans not being obedient to Catholicism.

[Uri’el-2012]

Mt. 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

From Thayer GSN-2193

b'shem Y'shua

[annalex]

I told you how to determine the meaning St. Matthew put in it, -- by looking at other usages of the same word by Matthew.

And, you don't have to teach me Greek. Not lying about it would do just fine.

[Uri’el-2012]

By your witness , I see you are not a follower of the Christ.

b'shem Y'shua

[Invincibly Ignorant]

And, you don't have to teach me Greek. Not lying about it would do just fine.

Ya come on Chuck. You and I believe this to be a shameless reach by Catholics because in context with the previous verse their interpretation does not make sense at all. However, we've learned over the years on previous threads that most Catholics believe this can be a "reasonable" disagreement. This thug is so insecure he has to call you a "liar". I wouldn't bother with him.

[RightOnline]

"...we Jews have a hard time understanding how a Jewish Husband and Wife failed to complete their marital responsibilities and consummate the marriage."

They weren't married at the time, son.

[Uri’el-2012]

Thanks for the support!

Baruch HaShem

[sanormal]

"Radical KKKer's would not effect Christianity, because Christianity is based on the commands and example of Christ."

The KKK profoundly effected Christianity and American society.

The Klan was able to infiltrate and control many of the largest American denominations. Most segregated their institutions or banned African-Americans, outright. Some promoted Klan recruiting in their ranks. Most supported oppressive Jim Crow Laws in the South. Even in the early 60's while major American denominations denounced racism and bigotry, they refused to integrate.

The Klan was responsible for the propaganda film, Birth of a Nation, which premiered at the White House (it was orginally called, The Clansman). It was the highest grossing film of its day.

The Klan controled Southern politics through their political arm, the Democrat Party. The Klan built memorials to the Confederacy and its leaders throughout the South.

It took the US government to detangle the Klan's tentacles from American society. Thankfully, we have turned the page.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Thanks for the support!

No prob. We have our disagreements but one thing I don't doubt is your sincerity.

[annalex]

Told once, it was a mistake due to the bad translation used. I corrected Xenia then. Following that, it is a lie, because proof to the contrary has been offered.

The previous verse, as well as the entire passage, has the miraculous birth of Christ as its context. St. Matthew does not intend to speak about the subsequent marital life of the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph. Hence, "eos" in that particular context is used as "till" and not "until", and no conjecture about what happened after the miraculous birth is warranted. It is not a matter of variant reading.

[Admin Moderator]

Let's play nice.