Given these terms, and given that Jesus specifically taught that we sin even in thought, are not all Catholics (and everyone) in a virtually perpetual state of sin? Do Catholics believe that pre-physical-death salvation is only complete from the time of the last confession to the next committed sin? (a very short time for even a good person)
On another thread I asked a Catholic what happens to a person who dies having sinned, but before the next confession. The answer amounted to if the person intended to confess, he would still be saved. I wondered if this was the official Catholic response because it can happen to anyone that he simply loses his way in faith for a short time. But if he dies during that time, then what?
But at the same time we read of salvation of those who came in contact with Christ directly, like the Good Thief, and did not undergo a formal baptism. We also speculate that the righteous of the pre-Christian era were saved by Christ in His healing work on the Holy Saturday. So we say that these were extraordinary means of salvation, ...
Since I am none of these things, and since I am not Catholic, I must be doomed. :) I'm not offended and I appreciate your honesty about your beliefs.
We believe that Christ judges all the baptized, Catholic and non-Catholic, based on the holiness of their lives. While there is no assurance of salvation outside of the Apostolic Catholic/Orthodox Church, a Christian life well lived in the love an in imitation of Christ leads to salvation.
The key here is what kind of judging we are talking about. Protestants believe that there is a "judgment" made as to salvation (is the person's name written in the Book of Life?). We also believe there is a judgment on the deeds of one's life, which determines reward in Heaven.
Non-Catholics should worry if they let their anti-Catholic sentiment get in the way of their own sanctification.
There is a creature sitting on each of my shoulders. One of them is an angel. :)
As St. Paul says, there is a basic moral law written in everyone's heart.
Given what I am arguing, this is something I need to know about. :) Would you happen to have a verse?
So if a pagan does not know Christ, never rejects Him, but holds on to what his religious instinct tells him about right and wrong, Christ will save him, or so we hope.
With all due respect, religious instinct????? What if this person's religious instinct about right and wrong, is ALL WRONG?! How do Hitler and his ilk not pass this test?What is your reaction to this? :
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
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Me: Does this mean that some do not [commit actual sin following baptism]?
Yes, -- for example those who die before age of reason, or unable to use reason due to a mental illness.
I can only infer from this that Catholics do not believe that a believer's baptism is necessary, that an infant sprinkling is sufficient. (You're saying that the baptism took place before the age of reason.) Is this right? If so, then how does one get credit for completing a sacrament "against" one's will, since a baby makes no choice and does not participate out of love? The same line of reasoning applies for the mentally disabled. The baptism could not have been chosen by the person.
We must possess sanctifying grace (the inner life of God) within us (you may recognize "Christ must abide within us") to enter eternal heaven. This cannot happen if we lose this sanctifying grace (which we never possessed BEFORE Baptism). When do we lose it? When we commit a mortal or deadly sin (as per 1 John). This sin is the sin that prevents us from inheriting eternal life, as per Paul. Thus, minor sins do not remove this sanctifying grace from us. Confession is only NECESSARY (although suggested more often, as you remember, sacraments are means of grace, and we all can use more!) when we commit mortal sins.
When a beginner advances in his walk with Christ, He rains more graces upon Him, stengthening the man's will to resist temptation. It becomes much more unlikely, then, that a man who is walking in Christ would mortally sin. It is not impossible, but not as likely. The more one grows in humility and in daily prayer, the more one grows in virtue and can resist serious sin.
On another thread I asked a Catholic what happens to a person who dies having sinned, but before the next confession. The answer amounted to if the person intended to confess, he would still be saved. I wondered if this was the official Catholic response because it can happen to anyone that he simply loses his way in faith for a short time. But if he dies during that time, then what?
He is correct. The Sacrament is a visible SIGN of God's graces. But the graces are dependent ALSO on the inner disposition of the recipient. We trust to God's mercy to deliver us from an untimely death when we fully intended to confess our sins. As to a person who "loses his way in faith", it depends on his inner disposition towards God. Any unrepentant mortal sins leave the soul in a state of death.
Since I am none of these things, and since I am not Catholic, I must be doomed. :) I'm not offended and I appreciate your honesty about your beliefs.
This is the subject of a whole thread. When the Chruch says "there is no salvation outside the Church", it is not quite so simple and clear. First the Church SUBSISTS in the Roman Catholic Church, but the Vatican 2 Fathers never said the Church IS the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the fullness of the visible Church, but the Catholic Church admits that through a valid Baptism, a person MAY be united to her in a mysterious and hidden manner. Also, recall that we do share many Catholic beliefs, Catholic traditions, Catholic practices, and we read a Catholic book. To the effect that you follow Christ, you are, in some manner, Catholic! And there is always that term "invincible ignorance"! If one is saved, it is through the Catholic Church - even if one does not contribute to a Catholic Church's collection plate on Sundays.
This does not mean we stop evangelizing other Christians. God desires all men be saved AND come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. We believe that the Catholic Church possesses within itself the fullest of God's revelation to man, as well as offering of God's plenitude of graces through the sacraments and prayers. One could say, then, if all things were equal, that a given person is more likely to grow in Christ within the Catholic Church then another community. But one can grow in Christ DESPITE not sharing the fullness of the faith.
Whew.
We also believe there is a judgment on the deeds of one's life, which determines reward in Heaven.
Nowhere in Scripture does judgment speak of "lesser rewards" or "greater rewards" in heaven, that I am aware of... Judgment is ALWAYS in the context of heaven or hell.
Given what I am arguing, this is something I need to know about. :) Would you happen to have a verse?
The natural law is pointed out by Paul in Romans 2:12-29. Note, again, the internal disposition that God requires. Here, Paul, if I may paraphrase, calls it "spiritual circumcision". Again, our inner self determines whether we are God's people or not. Since we can do no good alone, if we happen to be obeying that law for the right reasons (love of God and neighbor for their own sake) we can rest assured that God is operative within us.
So if a pagan does not know Christ, never rejects Him, but holds on to what his religious instinct tells him about right and wrong, Christ will save him, or so we hope. With all due respect, religious instinct????? What if this person's religious instinct about right and wrong, is ALL WRONG?! How do Hitler and his ilk not pass this test?What is your reaction to this? :
When Catholics talk about conscience, they are not considering any old conscience. We are wounded creatures! We speak of a properly informed conscience, one guided by the Spirit and our intellect properly formed by the Church. Once we are so informed and led, our conscience is a very reliable guide (if we'd only listen to it!). Obviously, Catholics also believe in objective truth. Thus, the "subjective truth" that Hitler wrote about doesn't apply. We contend that he KNEW right from wrong, but his intellect and will became slowly clouded, subjected to the temptations of the devil, to follow his own deviant will and intellect. Thus, Hitler chose not to follow the natural law, that objective Law written on our hearts, such as "thou shall not kill". Man doesn't need the Mosaic Law to tell him that.
I can only infer from this that Catholics do not believe that a believer's baptism is necessary, that an infant sprinkling is sufficient. (You're saying that the baptism took place before the age of reason.) Is this right? If so, then how does one get credit for completing a sacrament "against" one's will, since a baby makes no choice and does not participate out of love? The same line of reasoning applies for the mentally disabled. The baptism could not have been chosen by the person.
The concept of infant Baptism most CLEARLY describes salvation as a GIFT! What can a baby do to earn anything? Some brag about their faith - can a baby? Catholics believe that the sacrament is operative, NO MATTER the recipient's disposition, age, etc. It is ALWAYS a grace-filled action that visibly shows the invisible passing of grace. Paul in Col 2 parallels baptism with circumcision, which ALSO was a ritual that brings people into God's chosen people. As you know, it ALSO was practiced on infants. The idea, of course, is that the parents stand in proxy for the child. THEY promise to teach the faith to the child.
In time, Catholics have another sacrament called "Confirmation", where the person HIMSELF affirms his belief in Christ. I suppose the Baptism/Confirmation sacraments are similar to what you do in the Sinner's Prayer, FK. If you look at infant baptism, it is a merciful thing - for infants who die, or for people who cannot make informed decisions (maybe because they are mentally handicapped). Through the Church's actions, God opens His Kingdom to even such as these. This suggests that GOD is the one who determines the saved, not our own faith proclamation.
Annalex, I hope you didn't mind that I answered some of these. I C.C.'ed you a copy to prevent duplicate answers.
Brother in Christ
I found this website for you Defenders of the Catholic Faith. It is created by Steve Ray, a Catholic convert and a former baptist. It seems to be particularly well suited to the questions coming from the baptists.