We must possess sanctifying grace (the inner life of God) within us (you may recognize "Christ must abide within us") to enter eternal heaven. This cannot happen if we lose this sanctifying grace (which we never possessed BEFORE Baptism). When do we lose it? When we commit a mortal or deadly sin (as per 1 John). This sin is the sin that prevents us from inheriting eternal life, as per Paul. Thus, minor sins do not remove this sanctifying grace from us. Confession is only NECESSARY (although suggested more often, as you remember, sacraments are means of grace, and we all can use more!) when we commit mortal sins.
When a beginner advances in his walk with Christ, He rains more graces upon Him, stengthening the man's will to resist temptation. It becomes much more unlikely, then, that a man who is walking in Christ would mortally sin. It is not impossible, but not as likely. The more one grows in humility and in daily prayer, the more one grows in virtue and can resist serious sin.
On another thread I asked a Catholic what happens to a person who dies having sinned, but before the next confession. The answer amounted to if the person intended to confess, he would still be saved. I wondered if this was the official Catholic response because it can happen to anyone that he simply loses his way in faith for a short time. But if he dies during that time, then what?
He is correct. The Sacrament is a visible SIGN of God's graces. But the graces are dependent ALSO on the inner disposition of the recipient. We trust to God's mercy to deliver us from an untimely death when we fully intended to confess our sins. As to a person who "loses his way in faith", it depends on his inner disposition towards God. Any unrepentant mortal sins leave the soul in a state of death.
Since I am none of these things, and since I am not Catholic, I must be doomed. :) I'm not offended and I appreciate your honesty about your beliefs.
This is the subject of a whole thread. When the Chruch says "there is no salvation outside the Church", it is not quite so simple and clear. First the Church SUBSISTS in the Roman Catholic Church, but the Vatican 2 Fathers never said the Church IS the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the fullness of the visible Church, but the Catholic Church admits that through a valid Baptism, a person MAY be united to her in a mysterious and hidden manner. Also, recall that we do share many Catholic beliefs, Catholic traditions, Catholic practices, and we read a Catholic book. To the effect that you follow Christ, you are, in some manner, Catholic! And there is always that term "invincible ignorance"! If one is saved, it is through the Catholic Church - even if one does not contribute to a Catholic Church's collection plate on Sundays.
This does not mean we stop evangelizing other Christians. God desires all men be saved AND come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. We believe that the Catholic Church possesses within itself the fullest of God's revelation to man, as well as offering of God's plenitude of graces through the sacraments and prayers. One could say, then, if all things were equal, that a given person is more likely to grow in Christ within the Catholic Church then another community. But one can grow in Christ DESPITE not sharing the fullness of the faith.
Whew.
We also believe there is a judgment on the deeds of one's life, which determines reward in Heaven.
Nowhere in Scripture does judgment speak of "lesser rewards" or "greater rewards" in heaven, that I am aware of... Judgment is ALWAYS in the context of heaven or hell.
Given what I am arguing, this is something I need to know about. :) Would you happen to have a verse?
The natural law is pointed out by Paul in Romans 2:12-29. Note, again, the internal disposition that God requires. Here, Paul, if I may paraphrase, calls it "spiritual circumcision". Again, our inner self determines whether we are God's people or not. Since we can do no good alone, if we happen to be obeying that law for the right reasons (love of God and neighbor for their own sake) we can rest assured that God is operative within us.
So if a pagan does not know Christ, never rejects Him, but holds on to what his religious instinct tells him about right and wrong, Christ will save him, or so we hope. With all due respect, religious instinct????? What if this person's religious instinct about right and wrong, is ALL WRONG?! How do Hitler and his ilk not pass this test?What is your reaction to this? :
When Catholics talk about conscience, they are not considering any old conscience. We are wounded creatures! We speak of a properly informed conscience, one guided by the Spirit and our intellect properly formed by the Church. Once we are so informed and led, our conscience is a very reliable guide (if we'd only listen to it!). Obviously, Catholics also believe in objective truth. Thus, the "subjective truth" that Hitler wrote about doesn't apply. We contend that he KNEW right from wrong, but his intellect and will became slowly clouded, subjected to the temptations of the devil, to follow his own deviant will and intellect. Thus, Hitler chose not to follow the natural law, that objective Law written on our hearts, such as "thou shall not kill". Man doesn't need the Mosaic Law to tell him that.
I can only infer from this that Catholics do not believe that a believer's baptism is necessary, that an infant sprinkling is sufficient. (You're saying that the baptism took place before the age of reason.) Is this right? If so, then how does one get credit for completing a sacrament "against" one's will, since a baby makes no choice and does not participate out of love? The same line of reasoning applies for the mentally disabled. The baptism could not have been chosen by the person.
The concept of infant Baptism most CLEARLY describes salvation as a GIFT! What can a baby do to earn anything? Some brag about their faith - can a baby? Catholics believe that the sacrament is operative, NO MATTER the recipient's disposition, age, etc. It is ALWAYS a grace-filled action that visibly shows the invisible passing of grace. Paul in Col 2 parallels baptism with circumcision, which ALSO was a ritual that brings people into God's chosen people. As you know, it ALSO was practiced on infants. The idea, of course, is that the parents stand in proxy for the child. THEY promise to teach the faith to the child.
In time, Catholics have another sacrament called "Confirmation", where the person HIMSELF affirms his belief in Christ. I suppose the Baptism/Confirmation sacraments are similar to what you do in the Sinner's Prayer, FK. If you look at infant baptism, it is a merciful thing - for infants who die, or for people who cannot make informed decisions (maybe because they are mentally handicapped). Through the Church's actions, God opens His Kingdom to even such as these. This suggests that GOD is the one who determines the saved, not our own faith proclamation.
Annalex, I hope you didn't mind that I answered some of these. I C.C.'ed you a copy to prevent duplicate answers.
Brother in Christ
Thanks for your answer. I have a quick question on the difference between mortal and minor sin. Does it have to do with breaking one of the ten Commandments? I scanned 1 John and saw a reference to walking in the light, but I did not pick up on a distinction.
Also, it must be the case that some Catholics do not habitually practice confession. (No slam intended, many SBs don't practice what they ought either :) Anyway, I wondered what happens when a person commits a mortal sin, but by the time of the next confession it is innocently forgotten. So, there is no intention to confess and the sin is left "hanging" there. Can this be overcome using a "totality of the circumstances" type of approach or are rules, rules?
Also, recall that we do share many Catholic beliefs, Catholic traditions, Catholic practices, and we read a Catholic book. To the effect that you follow Christ, you are, in some manner, Catholic!
LOL! I can actually accept that, and I very much appreciate the olive branch. Based on my own standards which I have professed, I have always thought of Catholicism as a true faith with which I have some disagreement, as opposed to a false faith with which I have some agreement. I do truly believe there are many Catholics in heaven, and I do appreciate the opportunity to learn from my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. :)
Nowhere in Scripture does judgment speak of "lesser rewards" or "greater rewards" in heaven, that I am aware of... Judgment is ALWAYS in the context of heaven or hell.
I meant judgment in the sense of "a thing to be decided". I was referring to verses like these:
Matt. 5:11-12 : "11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Matt. 6:1 : "1 Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."
Luke 6:35 : "35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
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Obviously, Catholics also believe in objective truth. Thus, the "subjective truth" that Hitler wrote about doesn't apply. We contend that he KNEW right from wrong, but his intellect and will became slowly clouded, subjected to the temptations of the devil, to follow his own deviant will and intellect. Thus, Hitler chose not to follow the natural law, that objective Law written on our hearts, such as "thou shall not kill". Man doesn't need the Mosaic Law to tell him that.
I'm not so sure. I read you, then, to say that man is born with "some" good already written on his heart (natural law). If so, then would you comment on the following very personal account of Paul, particularly regarding his assertion that "nothing good lives in [him]", in his sinful nature which is the nature he was born with? -
Rom. 7:15-20 : "15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. "
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The concept of infant Baptism most CLEARLY describes salvation as a GIFT! What can a baby do to earn anything? Some brag about their faith - can a baby? Catholics believe that the sacrament is operative, NO MATTER the recipient's disposition, age, etc.
But, I know you have said that the gift of grace must be accepted to "count". Can the personal gift of salvation be accepted through proxy (parents)? Does infant baptism count, by itself, as initial salvation?
I suppose the Baptism/Confirmation sacraments are similar to what you do in the Sinner's Prayer, FK.
It's interesting. I really don't have much against infant baptism, I just don't see it as counting toward salvation. We would note the great commission, in which Jesus gave a particular order to the disciples of what should occur, belief first, then baptism. Both of my children were baptized as infants in other churches for family reasons, etc., so it's no problem for me.
In our SB church, instead of infant baptism, we have something called a "baby dedication". In front of the whole congregation during a normal Sunday service, the pastor first explains the spiritual translation of the meaning of the baby's name, then he prays over the baby. The parents pledge to raise the baby in a Godly manner, and the congregation pledges to support the family toward that end. It's really quite nice.
This suggests that GOD is the one who determines the saved, not our own faith proclamation.
LOL! Sign up one forest keeper for a ticket on that train! :)