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To: Forest Keeper; Cronos
FK: Was God just lucky then, that Judas betrayed Christ?

Borrowing from Bishop Minatios's work On Predestination:

"Thus Judas betrayed Christ not because Christ foresaw his betrayal, but rather Christ foresaw the betrayal of Judas because he intended to betray Christ."

In other words, the Protestants believe that foreknowledge is the cause of things. Thus, knowing that Judas (on his own will, lack of faith and greed) intended to betray Christ is why Christ chose him, but Christ did not make Judas betray Him.

The error of the Protestant mindset is that all the blame goes to God! (whether you see it that way or not) Just as Adam blamed God for giving him that woman, and Eve blamed it on the Serpant -- ultimately it was all God's fault! If God didn't make me do it, then someone else did, and if that fails, blame it on the devil! But since God is cause everything and all -- he must be the cause and reason for my evil as well. How ungrateful! How wrong! How totally off track!

Also, it is not true that everything is the way it was meant to be. God has unlimited options and can change His mind as He pleases. Thus, in 2 Kings 20: 1-5 it is obvious that God did change King Hezekia's predistined death, as Bishop Minatios amply illustrates.

Another Protestant error is that God's foreknowledge becomes a necessity which even God cannot change because He has preordained everything. False! God is not subject to necessity. And neither are we. Only beasts are subject to necessity.

Obviously, God can and does change his Plan as He sees fit, and He rewards those who follow Him. For us to follow Him meaningfully, it must be out of love and on our own free will. Otherwise we are back to that tractor beam, God leadings us by a leash. Wrong, totally wrong.

986 posted on 01/11/2006 7:08:26 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Cronos
Thus, knowing that Judas (on his own will, lack of faith and greed) intended to betray Christ is why Christ chose him, but Christ did not make Judas betray Him.

Like I said, God got pretty lucky that there was someone around who lacked faith, had greed, and was willing to go through the incredibly elaborate charade that Judas performed in order to betray the Son of Man. Judas was accepted and mingled with the others all the way through. It must have taken quite a performance. God didn't cause it of course, but you have to admit that God caught a pretty decent break with this Judas guy.

The error of the Protestant mindset is that all the blame goes to God!

I believe you seriously misunderstand us. We do not blame God for anything. Instead, we celebrate as God's plan is revealed and fulfilled before us. We do not delight that Judas betrayed Jesus, but we do recognize that this was in accordance with God's plan, and led to what is the reason our salvation is possible. There is absolute glory in that, and it all belongs to God.

Also, it is not true that everything is the way it was meant to be. God has unlimited options and can change His mind as He pleases. Thus, in 2 Kings 20: 1-5 it is obvious that God did change King Hezekia's predistined death, ...

If you believe that God actually changed His mind then you must also believe that when God called out to Adam in the Garden: "Where are you?", it was because God did not know. You might further believe that Abraham got the best of God during their "bargaining" in Gen. 18:20-33 over Sodom because Abraham was a superior negotiator. This is hilarious to me because it is you guys who attack us for humanizing God. Unlike you, we say that God knows what He is doing.

1,123 posted on 01/12/2006 3:11:05 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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