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To: Forest Keeper
It seems to me that you presume that RCC leadership has special insight into scripture and that you are to trust them definitionally, even to the point of adopting unscriptural views.

No, that's wrong, we don't belileve they have a special insight. We believe that God has guided His Church as a whole and that the checks and balances of the Holy Spirit through multiple men instead of an individual who is NOT God is trust-worthy. Beyond that, The Church encourages us to question and we have recourse to the Fathers who have debated these and their doubts on both sides. Do I as an individual trust them definitionally without thinking? I read through what they teach and the counter points and compare them to Scripture -- and their thoughts hold true. Even if I don't think so, I read more about why they thought what they thought and what The Church as a whole thought through God.

Our side does not trust any leader unless the teaching is solidly backed by scripture.

That's the whole thing -- as I pointed out to Marlowe in the preceeding post, each man interprets what he wants. The Scriptures can be twisted by some (and are) -- Marlowe chose to ignore what I said and read one phrase instead of the whole. This is the same with individual "pastors"

The Church has the checks by which there is no reliance on ONE interpretation, but the Holy Spirit through Scriptures. what we see is you following ONE Man's interpretation, not Scripture.

By that, we say that we follow Scripture more accurately since we do not rely on ONE Man's interpretation but on the Spirit superceding those men.

Our trust is in the Bible itself, rather than mechanically following the holdings of other fallible men.

Our Trust is in God and God's Word. We do not mechanically follow the holdings of other fallible men, but learn from the Holy SPirit THROUGH those men. Any one man can and is fallible, but the Spirit is NOT, so ONE man's interpretation is fallible, but the Spirit speaking through a multitude of men and women through the ages is NOT fallible.

We tend to say that if the authority is God, then good, but that if it is man, then bad

But that's what we say -- the authority IS God. We see you as accepting Benny Hinn saying that he is the mouthpiece of God. We accept the Holy Spirit speaking through His Church -- all the members of the Apostolic Church of Christ.

Do you think we are arrogant simply because we dare to disagree with you?

No, as I said: Is it arrogant to think that the questions, the doubts, the clarity you have, haven't been thought of in 2000 years by men of God made wiser by the Holy Spirit than you or me? Yes.

We see you as raising yourselves above the Holy Spirit and as making yourselves as a pharisitical group
965 posted on 01/10/2006 8:02:16 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Cronos
Me: "It seems to me that you presume that RCC leadership has special insight into scripture ..."

No, that's wrong, we don't belileve they have a special insight. We believe that God has guided His Church as a whole and that the checks and balances of the Holy Spirit through multiple men instead of an individual who is NOT God is trust-worthy. Beyond that, The Church encourages us to question and we have recourse to the Fathers who have debated these and their doubts on both sides.

To me, you are agreeing with my point. If God guides "The Church" over time in a way He does not guide the individual, then that is special insight. This leads me to ask you another question, one which I am sure that I am the only one on this thread who doesn't know. :) I want to use the term correctly, so who EXACTLY are the Church Fathers? Does it refer to any prior Church authority (is JPII a Church Father?), or does it refer to the leaders and thinkers of the early Church? Is it a specific group or a general term? Are they all previous popes? On this thread I have been advised to read the Church Fathers, so I suppose this is a first step. :)

Do I as an individual trust them definitionally without thinking? I read through what they teach and the counter points and compare them to Scripture -- and their thoughts hold true.

If their thoughts always hold true, how is that not trusting them definitionally? I thought that every good Catholic was compelled to follow the interpretation of the Church whether he liked it or not. I mean, that's fine and all if the Catholic so chooses to do that. Take the issue of homosexuality for example. I agreed with the general spirit of what Pope Benedict XVI recently held. I just wonder what is going to happen when some future Pope takes a more Episcopalian view. Would you say that can't happen? Would you follow out of loyalty? Would you leave the Church?

The Church has the checks by which there is no reliance on ONE interpretation, but the Holy Spirit through Scriptures. what we see is you following ONE Man's interpretation, not Scripture. By that, we say that we follow Scripture more accurately since we do not rely on ONE Man's interpretation but on the Spirit superceding those men.

Really, what's his name? I want to know whose interpretation I am following. Is it Luther? You must know that throughout Protestantism, there are countless divergences from his teachings. I thought it was you who are bound to one man's interpretation. If the pope decrees something, are you not bound?

We see you as accepting Benny Hinn saying that he is the mouthpiece of God.

If you are really lumping in the Protestants on this thread with the Benny Hinn crowd, then you don't have any fundamental understanding of us at all.

Me: "Do you think we are arrogant simply because we dare to disagree with you?"

No, as I said: Is it arrogant to think that the questions, the doubts, the clarity you have, haven't been thought of in 2000 years by men of God made wiser by the Holy Spirit than you or me? Yes.

You contradict yourself. By "men of God made wiser" you mean Catholic leaders or Church Fathers. You follow them and their teachings. Your views are their views. You say that we are arrogant for not following them. That's the same as accusing us of arrogance for not agreeing with you as a representative of these men made wiser by God.

1,052 posted on 01/11/2006 3:46:13 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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