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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper; wmfights
Once you claim you are of the elect, you believe you cannot fail - thus, the result is the same as OSAS. Perhaps you can explain the difference?


7,520 posted on 06/01/2006 7:52:42 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luke 24:45)
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To: HarleyD
From the section on Perseverance of the Saints

Thanks for your explanation. Apparently, the distinction is based on the view of subsequent sin after regeneration. OSAS seems to not care about sin and the possibility of it effecting one's "secured" salvation, while POTS seems to say that one has not been regenerated unless there are signs of regeneration by not being enslaved to sin. POTS doesn't require perfection, but it seems clear to me that works are part of the formula.

In a sense, I can agree and understand POTS, as Catholics believe that love and faith go together as part of the package. A person who loves has obviously been regenerated. However, this seems to me more a current status. What proves that because you are a believer today and next week, that you are working in love and so forth, that you won't fall away next year? Is the perseverance commanded by God to us, or is God Himself persevering?

I would say that God perseveres in giving us the grace WE need to persevere...

Regards

7,522 posted on 06/01/2006 9:24:35 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: HarleyD
"Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end. John 6:37-39,..."
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Interesting post, but I think he got it wrong when saying "OSAS" teaches you can go out and sin all you want. I think the distinction is that when someone is saved (once saved) the HOLY SPIRIT will seal that person and dwell in them. Thus, if you are truly SAVED the desire to sin will die over time as the HOLY SPIRIT convicts you in that sin. Due to the actions of the HOLY SPIRIT the true believer will persevere to the end (joyfully) and therefore is "Always Saved".
7,539 posted on 06/01/2006 12:15:42 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: HarleyD; jo kus; wmfights
[On POTS] Thanks, Harley. Now I remember saving that article the first time you posted it, long ago. Then I forgot I had it. I should really check my own stash more often! :)

1 Thess. 5:23-24, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."

This looks like a prayer to me. Jesus says:

John 15:7 : If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

So if we give Paul credit for remaining in Christ and His words remaining in him, then here is more evidence that there can be assurance of perseverance.

7,699 posted on 06/03/2006 3:30:39 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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