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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
OK, I was just wondering about the mechanics of baptism's relationship to theosis. I would assume that one cannot reach theosis if one is not "in Christ". Is baptism the only way to accomplish this?

Baptism is not theosis. Baptism in the name of The Holy Trinity is valid regardless of our intellectual ability.

The reason why adults have to believe in order to be baptized is because they have already sinned and must repent. Those who cannot sin (infants, mentally handicapped) have not sinned, so there is no need to repent. God's grace is valid regardless. For those who cannot sin, they will live the rest of their lives forgiven and restored; for those who have sinned, they must repent and seek God to avoid sin because they will continue to sin.

Baptism will wash away any sins that we already have. Theosis is our participation in God's uncreated energies, living a virtuous life in Christ, cooperating with God's will. Two different things, FK.

So how can you be saying this? :) This idea is along the lines of Irresistible Grace. I'm glad you can buy at least one thing in TULIP. :)

Grace is not shoved down our throat against our will. God's grace is there whether we want it or not, whether we understand it or not, whether we know it or not.

7,270 posted on 05/28/2006 3:37:23 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; jo kus; George W. Bush; Agrarian
Baptism will wash away any sins that we already have. Theosis is our participation in God's uncreated energies, living a virtuous life in Christ, cooperating with God's will. Two different things, FK.

Yes, the two are very different. That's why I used the word "relationship" as in "relationship between". I think you have said that Baptism is how people become "in Christ". But at the same time, Baptism is only good until the next mortal sin, at which point they are again "out of Christ". So, what happens to the adult believer who is never baptized, but is very faithful about going to confession and is totally "covered" on that front? Assume he has confessed every major sin and had them all forgiven. Since you don't believe in original sin, (therefore Baptism doesn't need to take care of it), how is this guy any different from someone who has been baptized?

Grace is not shoved down our throat against our will. God's grace is there whether we want it or not, whether we understand it or not, whether we know it or not.

Infant Baptism is precisely shoving grace down the throat of the infant! :) I'm sure it is literally true many times that there is kicking and screaming! How many infants do you think enjoy having their breathing interrupted three times in a row? I doubt many. This is why infant Baptism puzzles me so much. Normally, I'm the guy who says that God will grace those whom He will and that is that. Your side and the Catholics will say 'No', grace must be freely accepted by the recipient in all cases EXCEPT for the remission of sins. Kiddingly, I suppose the equivalent to my side would be holding a gun to someone's head to recite the sinner's prayer. :)

7,401 posted on 05/31/2006 1:40:23 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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