[jo kus]

Mary was no more instrumental to the eventual revelation of Christ in the flesh than were many others in scripture. Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, and innumerable others. The vital choices and sacrifices essential to God's plan made by so many others are all set to nought by elevating Mary so far above all others. That all generations shall call her blessed is indisputed. But you are close to elevating her to the status of Christ Himself.

Mary was a creation, Jesus was/is God. There is a huge difference right there. If God desires to share His divine nature with creation, why would it seem so strange that He would share glory with others? I see this even in magnanimous humans. Is God not better than such people? No, the Church has not forgotten who God is. Honoring Mary is not putting her on equal footing as Christ. No sacrifice is offered to her, only to God. All graces have their source in God. But is God jealous of Mary? That would seem strange!

To me, scripture has only one object, one star: Jesus Christ. There are no co-stars, no co-redemptrixes. All of God's glory is focused upon Christ in the person of Jesus. Everyone else is a bit-player in comparison.

Strictly speaking, Jesus is the theme of the Scriptures. No doubt. But I see God sharing the limelight with us "two-bit" players, and even the lead charecters...

Mary suffered like any human being. But scripture does not attest that she suffered anything comparable to the grisly deaths of the early martyrs of the Church. There is no evidence or testimony of this in the canon.

I, of course, am not refering to Mary dying a martyr's death!!! The Sword that pierced her heart, as prophesied by Simeon, was a sorrowful sword to her soul, that heart, not the organ that pumps blood! Two people's hearts were pierced at Calvary, one physically, and one spiritually.

Someone posted earlier on this thread, much as we discussed in the longstanding arguments between Calvinists and Arminians, that sometimes we argue over words whose precise definitions we do not necessarily share. And we all bring hidden personal and cultural and institutional assumptions to our discussion that we may not be fully aware of. This is even true of us Baptists which is probably why there are so many flavors of Baptist. ; )

I have said that here and agree with it, as well. Much of our disagreements stem from definitions and our total paradigms on viewing the Scriptures. For example, if one has the idea of the Total Depravity of man, then it is quite easy to dispel the notion, found in Scriptures, that man cannot cooperate with God's graces by twisting the text to mean something else. I would bet that Baptists believe that Catholics do the same thing with other doctrines! Thus, the problem of Scripture without an external authority. You cannot know the TRUTH! That is probably what attracted me to Catholicism the most. They claim to be have the authority given to them from the Apostles. It is a bold truth claim or an ignorant mistake... Obviously, I will hold the former!

Brother in Christ

[George W. Bush]

Mary was a creation, Jesus was/is God. There is a huge difference right there. If God desires to share His divine nature with creation, why would it seem so strange that He would share glory with others? I see this even in magnanimous humans. Is God not better than such people?

You are trying to use logic to say something scripture doesn't teach. I find no particular merit in such speculation and restrain such thinking in myself, something I have to work at. And certainly God is better than people. But people do many things for motives that God does not possess. God is a spirit and He is holy, holy, holy. We cannot compare Him to our lowly selves in His motives and actions.

I would bet that Baptists believe that Catholics do the same thing with other doctrines!

Obviously so. The Protestants too, I'm afraid, even if some of them still find merit in baby-splashing. We Baptists will try to be more persuasive. ; )

Thus, the problem of Scripture without an external authority. You cannot know the TRUTH! That is probably what attracted me to Catholicism the most. They claim to be have the authority given to them from the Apostles.

Well, the Renaissance popes can't give you much comfort, can they? This theme of scripture being unknowable without authority and tradition surfaces repeatedly. But if that is the case, you may as well discard your bible and stop studying it. It has become superfluous to the teaching of the men of that Tradition. It might even cause confusion and dissent within your church which is why Rome forbade laymen from its study for so many centuries and murdered so many to punish them for reading scripture in the West.

It is a bold truth claim or an ignorant mistake... Obviously, I will hold the former!

Well, we'll disagree politely then. At least there, I suspect you have the upper-hand because I'm not known for my diplomacy.