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To: jo kus
St. Augustine then went the other extreme to defend the Catholic faith, using words and phrases that our Calvinist brothers have taken out of context!

So, you have to assign ulterior motives to Augustine in order to deny his scriptural teachings on sovereignty. As long as you admit it, fine with me. ; )

I don't believe I denied that Mary had free will!

Well, maybe you didn't exactly. But the RC and Orthodox do seem to hold a view that Mary was not a normal human being even prior to her birth. This is my objection.

When we start putting halos on people's heads or calling them saints and co-redemptrix, we have taken away from their humanity and their frailty as men and women. God's glory is diminished if we posit that He created special beings who do not face the same trials as the rest of us.

Your explanation seems to properly balance man's free will with God's sovereign will without destroying either one.

There, it seems, is the trick. To hold both in proper balance.
7,059 posted on 05/23/2006 10:27:14 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
So, you have to assign ulterior motives to Augustine in order to deny his scriptural teachings on sovereignty. As long as you admit it, fine with me. ; )

No, I am saying that people on the opposite extremes of the center point represented by Catholicism twisted St. Augustine's words for their own purposes. I am not saying that the saint had ulterior motives!

Well, maybe you didn't exactly. But the RC and Orthodox do seem to hold a view that Mary was not a normal human being even prior to her birth. This is my objection.

That's what we believe. God gave Mary a singular grace, making her the greatest of all creation, one who will be called blessed for all generations. We cannot honor Mary enough - but it is because of GOD, not what Mary did on her OWN.

When we start putting halos on people's heads or calling them saints and co-redemptrix, we have taken away from their humanity and their frailty as men and women. God's glory is diminished if we posit that He created special beings who do not face the same trials as the rest of us.

Not at all! We realize that God blessed Mary, but not to the degree that she no longer had free will or was a robot. We believe that creation is allowed to cooperate with God - to choose good or evil. God's glory is not diminished, rather, His magnanimousity is amplified. God is not in fear that someone will "take His glory". He lovingly allows man to cooperate in His ongoing works in creation, giving man a dignity above any other visible creation. We highly venerate Mary for her life and her choices, and we love God all the more for giving us such a wonderful creation that totally committed herself in humility and obedience to the Word of God.

Mary did face a number of trials. I do not believe that she had supernatural knowledge. Certainly, choosing to bear child while not married yet subjected her to possible stoning. And whose sorrow exceeds that of the Dolorous Virgin, watching her Son die on a cross, knowing it was God's Will be done and probably not knowing why? No, Mary certainly suffered - a sword pierced her heart, too, at Calvary.

Regards

7,060 posted on 05/23/2006 10:53:24 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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