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So, you have to assign ulterior motives to Augustine in order to deny his scriptural teachings on sovereignty. As long as you admit it, fine with me. ; )

No, I am saying that people on the opposite extremes of the center point represented by Catholicism twisted St. Augustine's words for their own purposes. I am not saying that the saint had ulterior motives!

Well, maybe you didn't exactly. But the RC and Orthodox do seem to hold a view that Mary was not a normal human being even prior to her birth. This is my objection.

That's what we believe. God gave Mary a singular grace, making her the greatest of all creation, one who will be called blessed for all generations. We cannot honor Mary enough - but it is because of GOD, not what Mary did on her OWN.

When we start putting halos on people's heads or calling them saints and co-redemptrix, we have taken away from their humanity and their frailty as men and women. God's glory is diminished if we posit that He created special beings who do not face the same trials as the rest of us.

Not at all! We realize that God blessed Mary, but not to the degree that she no longer had free will or was a robot. We believe that creation is allowed to cooperate with God - to choose good or evil. God's glory is not diminished, rather, His magnanimousity is amplified. God is not in fear that someone will "take His glory". He lovingly allows man to cooperate in His ongoing works in creation, giving man a dignity above any other visible creation. We highly venerate Mary for her life and her choices, and we love God all the more for giving us such a wonderful creation that totally committed herself in humility and obedience to the Word of God.

Mary did face a number of trials. I do not believe that she had supernatural knowledge. Certainly, choosing to bear child while not married yet subjected her to possible stoning. And whose sorrow exceeds that of the Dolorous Virgin, watching her Son die on a cross, knowing it was God's Will be done and probably not knowing why? No, Mary certainly suffered - a sword pierced her heart, too, at Calvary.

Regards

And whose sorrow exceeds that of the Dolorous Virgin, watching her Son die on a cross, knowing it was God's Will be done and probably not knowing why?

I think Mary knew why Christ was being crucified. Don't you? That doesn't make it any less tragic and painful and heart-breaking, but she surely knew her Son to be God and understood that He was dying in her place and ours.

I am not saying that the saint had ulterior motives!

Okay. But it kinda sounded like that to me.

God gave Mary a singular grace, making her the greatest of all creation, one who will be called blessed for all generations.

Mary was no more instrumental to the eventual revelation of Christ in the flesh than were many others in scripture. Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, and innumerable others. The vital choices and sacrifices essential to God's plan made by so many others are all set to nought by elevating Mary so far above all others. That all generations shall call her blessed is indisputed. But you are close to elevating her to the status of Christ Himself.

To me, scripture has only one object, one star: Jesus Christ. There are no co-stars, no co-redemptrixes. All of God's glory is focused upon Christ in the person of Jesus. Everyone else is a bit-player in comparison.

Mary did face a number of trials. I do not believe that she had supernatural knowledge. Certainly, choosing to bear child while not married yet subjected her to possible stoning. And whose sorrow exceeds that of the Dolorous Virgin, watching her Son die on a cross, knowing it was God's Will be done and probably not knowing why? No, Mary certainly suffered - a sword pierced her heart, too, at Calvary.

Mary suffered like any human being. But scripture does not attest that she suffered anything comparable to the grisly deaths of the early martyrs of the Church. There is no evidence or testimony of this in the canon.

Well, I assume you are sincere and I'm not trying to suggest you are dishonest in any way. Like any Baptist, I try to stand on scripture's firm ground and understand God's will as best I can. Someone posted earlier on this thread, much as we discussed in the longstanding arguments between Calvinists and Arminians, that sometimes we argue over words whose precise definitions we do not necessarily share. And we all bring hidden personal and cultural and institutional assumptions to our discussion that we may not be fully aware of. This is even true of us Baptists which is probably why there are so many flavors of Baptist. ; )

I try to remember that in these discussion we can sometimes speak at cross-purposes without intending to do so.

"But the RC and Orthodox do seem to hold a view that Mary was not a normal human being even prior to her birth."

True for Catholicism, false for Orthodoxy.