[HarleyD]

One could take it that God was pleased to crush Him because He takes delight in sending people to hell. Given the Calvinsist idea of double predestination, is it surprising that I thought that you considered God sadistic?

The scriptures states that the “Lord was PLEASED to crush Him”. That is as far as you can go. The problem is that everyone reads more into things then what is there. It’s like “the AUTHOR OF EVIL” nonsense that is often thrown around. If people would just simply take the text for what it says instead of saying “Yeah, but…” they might see things for what they are.

The idea of double predestination (God elects some and others He doesn’t) isn’t all that far fetched or sadistic. God told the Israel to sprinkle blood on the lintels to protect their first born. He didn’t tell the Egyptians anything. Was that sadistic of God?

God allows evil - to discipline those whom He loves and to bring them back to good.

Yeah, but… ;O) Why did God allow Adam to sin in the first place if He allows evil to bring people back to good? Why did God destroy Sodom or the world? Wasn’t their great evil a greater catalyst for bringing people back?

I would content that God hate evil and cannot stand the sight of it. The greater the evil the more repugnant it is to Him. He tolerates it and uses man’s evil simply so He can carry forth His divine plan.

And John also says "everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil" (1 John 3:8). I don't think John meant that these two verses were to be taken literally

You need to take the entire book of 1 John in context. John also states that :

“We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 1Jo 5:18

Is John actually saying Christians do not sin? Not at all. John clarifies what he means:

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1Jo 3:9

Christians cannot PRACTICE sin because they are born of God. They are now slaves to righteousness (Rom 6). That does not mean that we have no sin. It simply means that we will no longer sin without great conviction and chastisement.

The Council of Carthage of 418 was a result of Pelagianism. It denied the necessity of grace and the reality of original sin.

And yet the Roman Catholic Church finds a lot in common with the Orthodox Church who denies original sin?!?

Regarding Romans 3, I suggest you read Psalms 14, which was what Paul is quoting from. Paul is writing about the wicked.

Of course Paul is talking about the wicked. We are all wicked in God sight. Or would you say there are some who are better than others.

[jo kus]

The scriptures states that the “Lord was PLEASED to crush Him”. That is as far as you can go.

Perhaps you should look at the context where you site the above verses, noting that you underlined that verse. Your point was that God actively reprobates, being pleased to do so. I still contend that your initial post makes God out to be sadistic.

The idea of double predestination (God elects some and others He doesn’t) isn’t all that far fetched or sadistic

That's not my idea of what double predestination is. We agree on predestination, in that God actively chooses His elect. But regarding the reprobate, God does NOT actively choose the condemned - the Church says that God ALLOWS them to be reprobated. Thus, the huge difference between the Catholic and Calvinist idea of predestination.

I would content that God hate evil and cannot stand the sight of it. The greater the evil the more repugnant it is to Him. He tolerates it and uses man’s evil simply so He can carry forth His divine plan.

Fair enough. I can agree with that. I doubt that you or I will ever figure out God's ways while we are alive on this earth.

Is John actually saying Christians do not sin? Not at all. John clarifies what he means: “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1Jo 3:9

Christians cannot PRACTICE sin because they are born of God. They are now slaves to righteousness (Rom 6). That does not mean that we have no sin. It simply means that we will no longer sin without great conviction and chastisement

Christians cannot PRACTICE sin because they are born of God.

But they DO sin. John is telling us what he EXPECTS of the Christian, not what we actually DO. If we take it literally, there is confusion, as my previous post points out. When one sins, they are from the devil. When one believes, they are from Christ. Apparently, John did not believe that a person remained "in Christ" throughout their Christian walk. The NT over and over discusses that Christians can and DO return to the "vomit" of their former lives. Even committed Christians at times falter in their walk, either abiding in Christ, or abiding in the devil by doing their own will. Do we remain in Christ when we are sinning? I believe you are confusing the OUGHT with what Christians sometimes DO. "My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just" (1 John 2:1)

And yet the Roman Catholic Church finds a lot in common with the Orthodox Church who denies original sin?!?

Orthodoxy does not deny the fall of man and the lack of grace found in the post-Adam man preceding Baptism. If I am not mistaken, the only difference is that the Orthodox do not place a guilt upon the inheritor of original sin. The condition of man before Baptism is not one of sin, but one of a lack of God's grace, which, by the way, is the same viewpoint of Catholicism. Catholics believe that man is born without sanctifying grace, without the life of God within them - thus, we can say they are born in sin.

Paul is talking about the wicked. We are all wicked in God sight. Or would you say there are some who are better than others.

You didn't read all of Psalm 14, did you. Paul is not saying that ALL men are wicked. ONLY the WICKED will not turn to God. This makes sense, as a person who has been so blinded by habitual sin will not turn to God without some sort of divine intervention of grace. They will not seek out God on their own. Also, consider Psalm 5, which again, Paul is quoting to discuss the wicked. But as the last verses of Psalm 14, and better yet, Psalm 5 show, the righteous DO seek out God:

"But as for me in the multitude of thy mercy, I will come into thy house; I will worship towards thy holy temple, in thy fear. Conduct me, O Lord, in thy justice: because of my enemies, direct my way in thy sight. for there is no truth in their mouth; their heart is vain. Their throat is an open sepulchre: they dealt deceitfully with their tongues: judge them, O God. Let them fall from their devices: according to the multitude of their wickedness cast them out: for they have provoked thee, O Lord. But let all them be glad that hope in thee: they shall rejoice for ever, and thou shalt dwell in them. And all they that love thy name shall glory in thee: For thou wilt bless the just. O Lord, thou hast crowned us, as with a shield of thy good will. Psalm 5: 7-12

Unfortunately, many Protestants read Romans 3 without understanding the context that Paul draws upon to make their incorrect conclusions.

Regards