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To: HarleyD; Full Court; monkfan

"Mary did not for a moment believe that she would be married and bear a child."

On that we agree. Therefore what Monkfan and I are saying is exactly consistent with the account in Luke.

Where we and you are in disagreement is the reason why she would respond as she did. What you are suggesting is that she knew both that a. she was going to bear the Messiah, and that b. this meant she would conceive as a virgin.

You write: "Mary, whether she knew about Isaiah or not, in no way believe that she would conceive in the "normal" way."

But if she knew that she was going to bear the Messiah and that this meant that she was going to conceive as a virgin and not in the "normal way", then she would not have said "how can this thing be, since I know not a man?" You are suggesting that she was fully aware that she wasn't going to "know" a man to conceive this child -- so why would she ask this question?

If she knew that the angel was announcing a virgin birth, she wouldn't have asked this question.

If she thought that the angel was announcing a special, but not virgin birth, she wouldn't have asked that either, if she was (as per your scenario) betrothed to a young man whom she intended to set up housekeeping with.

Monkfan and I (or rather the Orthodox Church) give an account of events that explains perfectly well why she would ask that question. So far, no Protestant on this forum has given an explanation that makes sense.

Allow me to lead by example: I fully acknowledge that Matthew 1:25 can be read just as much in support of the Protestant position as of the Orthodox account. I will even go so far as to say that if one takes the verse in isolation that the Protestant reading is the logical one. Furthermore, I will say that the verses regarding Jesus' "brethren," again, taken in isolation, are very reasonably read as Protestants interpret.

Is it *that* hard to acknowledge that at least on this one verse in Luke, that the Orthodox explanation meshes neatly with the Virgin's response, whereas you are having to scramble to find some way to read the verse to explain why she asked that question?


5,915 posted on 05/08/2006 2:15:32 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian
Where we and you are in disagreement is the reason why she would respond as she did.
5,920 posted on 05/08/2006 3:16:57 PM PDT by Full Court (www.justbible.com)
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To: Agrarian; Full Court; monkfan
Well, I must admit I went back and reread these posts a little bit closer. At the risk of making light of your traditions; I believe your argument that Mary was dedicated to being a virgin, married the old couth Joseph just so she could devote herself to prayer when he kicked the bucket, sounds a bit self-serving of Mary doesn’t it. What about poor Joseph?

I suppose your entire argument rest upon the simple phrase, "Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" (Luk 1:34) If she knew from Isaiah 7 that the Messiah was going to be brought forth by a virgin, then why would she asked that question? Is this correct?

Mary was isn’t questioning God’s angel through unfaithfulness as Zachariah did. Mary was simply questioning the mechanics of the situation. Mary is asking HOW can a virgin bring forth a Messiah. I must admit I would probably ask the same question, "How is this going to happen?" Many of the Old Testament prophets did the same thing including Moses when God told him he was going to give the children of Israel meat. Moses asked HOW-not through unfaithfulness but of curiosity.

Please note the angel’s response:

Mary was simply asking how God was going to bring about this miracle. The angel told her how it was going to be done. You will find this part is not covered in Isaiah 7. Mary was simply curious.
5,947 posted on 05/08/2006 4:50:32 PM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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