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To: kosta50

Thank you for saying that. It has always been my deep conviction, that nothing between the East ad the West is unbridgeable in principle, and when the Holy Ghost wills it.

It is not to say that the differences are not profound as they seem today, specifically over the Filioque. But they reflect centuries of very limited exchange of thought; a reinvigorated exchange might close the gap.

Quite another issue is whether the ecumenical movement is wise for the health of the Orthodox Church given the profound cultural crisis rampant in the West. Why on earth would you want altar girls and clown masses? I think the Latin Church should move toward lower-case orthodoxy internally first and regain her balance, befor rushing headlong to embrace the East. I wouldn't have posted this half a year ago, but I came to appreciate the caution that the Russians felt toward John Paul II. I think this pontificate will be critical for ecumenism precisely because Benedict XVI shows that his concentration will be in the West. Moreover, the pastoral needs in the West are the exact opposite of the pastoral needs in the East. We need a strong centralizer and disciplinarian in Rome. But this is not a model useful for the East, where autocephaly was so beneficial in preserving the faith despite the near-loss of the Middle East and then Russia.


580 posted on 01/06/2006 5:31:48 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; kosta50

"Quite another issue is whether the ecumenical movement is wise for the health of the Orthodox Church given the profound cultural crisis rampant in the West. Why on earth would you want altar girls and clown masses?"

Alex, a lot of us are very worried about precisely these things and you and I and Kosta have all seen the depredations committed in the old countries by an embrace of Western culture, almost invariably of the worst the West has to offer. But the flip side is that the sense of the sacred which is so profound in the East may in fact transform the West. Perhaps the "mission civilatrice" has been passed on to Eastern Christendom.


582 posted on 01/06/2006 5:53:29 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex
What you say is, of course, very true. The movement in the Roman Catholic Curch is one of re-asserting its own (western brand) of Orthodoxy. The ecclesiastical arrangement in the Latin Church was never an obstacle to the undivided Church. The Patriarchs are autocephalous successors of Apostolic offices, equal in grace and deferential in order.

While the Eastern design did achieve unity through diversity, we must never forget that it was a Pope who saved the East from falling into several fatal heresies. Let's not forget that Eastern greats such as +Chrysostomos, +Maximos the Confessor, etc. found refuge in papal Orthodoxy.

Clearly, the internal organization of the churches in the west and the east did not constitute problems. The language did, and so did the political realities. Our division is theological first and foremost. It may very well be that one day a Great Council will show that one of us was in error of some kind or at least in deception or some other kind of omission. It wouldn't be the first time. The Church never errs as a whole, but its parts do, because the Cbhurch is mad eup of sinners. There is no shame if one honestly tries and honestly fails. On the other hand, we may come to see that our divisions were our own pride and arrogance and, once stripped of them, we may humbly see more clearly that neither side was in error. That is a minor concern of mine, to be hoenst with you because the very foundations of our beliefs are one and the same, even to intricate details. I never thought I would see that, but I do now, thanks to our Protestant friends here. Until such Council is a reality, we need to live with our differences, but always cognizant of our foundation, which makes us one, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

For such a Council to be even called, we need to agree on the papal jurisdiction when it comes to other particular Churches within the Church. +Benedict XVI is set on discussing this matter, and he is ready to make the Latin Church more patristic, even if it means a smaller Church, which is precisely the patristic attitude.

I think the beginning of the end of schism is perception that we are (if not completely but almost completely) one faith, when we recognize the same theology, and that is becoming more and more obvious with ever-increasing exchange of our views officially and unofficially, as we learn more and more the traps of language and details of our separate but parallel development. It is clear that +Benedict XVI is steering the Church towards patristic roots and traditions of the Church, when East and West were mere geographical locations.

586 posted on 01/06/2006 6:06:42 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex
I think the Latin Church should move toward lower-case orthodoxy internally first and regain her balance, befor rushing headlong to embrace the East

Quite right!

I wouldn't have posted this half a year ago, but I came to appreciate the caution that the Russians felt toward John Paul II. I think this pontificate will be critical for ecumenism precisely because Benedict XVI shows that his concentration will be in the West.

Perhaps. I would say that the Orthodox measured approach seemed like obstinance to us but a slower, more deeper union would be better than anything else.
703 posted on 01/09/2006 12:22:00 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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