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To: jo kus; kosta50
Recall, we believe we cooperate, we do not believe we initiate or are able to earn in a strict sense any merit. ... The only sense that we "earn" salvation is in a secondary manner - relying on God's promises of salvation IF we obey His commandments. By obeying God, we merit a reward strictly based on God's righteous desire to reward us for accepting His gifts. But strictly speaking, we can merit nothing ALONE since we give God nothing that He has not already given us.

I'm with you for the beginning of your post, but here I get confused. If I understand you, then man's use of free will to initiate good deeds, or acceptance of His gifts doesn't count as real initiative because God first took the initiative to offer us the gifts. This is initiative and merit in the secondary sense? To me, that sounds like a simple timing issue. If my boss simply tells me to accomplish "X", and gives me the tools, but does not tell me what to do step by step, is my initiative in completing the task really secondary?

I still do not understand why the distinction makes a difference in whether we earn our salvation or not. Are there not tons of things in normal life that we would consider to be fully earned, even though they would fit your definition of being a secondary cause? When a baseball player hits a home run, would you call that "secondary" because technically, he couldn't have done it without the owner hiring him, and the manager putting him in the lineup?

5,667 posted on 05/05/2006 12:05:09 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
Regarding your back-and-forth about us "earning" our salvation.

Either you don't read everything we say or you don't understand it, FK. It's not that difficult. Everything comes from God, including our faith and our salvation. God does not need us to cooperate with Him, but He wants us to do so (for a good reason, trust me), which is why He gives us the freedom to either accept His merciful offers of grace or to reject them.

Acceptance of His grace does not "earn" you points for salvation. Your salvation is not a simple one-moment event. One Orthodox priest once said it's like getting a visa to America and all you have is a dinghy at the coast of France (and a whole Atlantic Ocean in between)! You have been given the visa and you have a dinghy, but it's up to you to undertake the voyage; you must want it, and you must initiate it.

There will be tribulations and temptations and storms and obstacles that you must overcome to get there, and the only way you will accomplish this is if you persevere to the end, even if you perish trying. Living or dying is not an issue here; nor is it important as far as our salvation is concerned.

What counts is that you, for the love of God, and not because He coerced you or brainwashed you or because He attached a tractor beam to your forehead, stay the course and follow Christ's footsteps -- forgive others, repent, be merciful, and above all trust that whatever happens will be merciful and just, and what you really "deserved" in God's eyes.

If you can do that, you can also calmly and without any further speculation simply say "Thy will be done" and be done with it. You must be clear and without any doubt that whatever obstacles you encounter in good faith will not count against you; they will not earn you points; they will only bring you closer to God.

Our sub deacon the other day said his grandmother told him "first the cross then the crown." He said "it bothered him" to hear that when he was younger, but now he realizes how much she knew her theology. :)

Accepting Christ does not stop the world around you. You still have to deal with the world and everything it dishes out to you. Just because you are "saved" does not mean you now "rate" special treatment. How many Christians say "How could this happen to me? I go to Church, I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior and yet these things happen to me..."

Let me tell you, getting a visa for America for many people is a "salvation." Getting there sometimes requires a lot more faith and perseverance than you think.

Ultimately, what matters is not whether we "succeed" or not, but whether we remain Christ-like in our hearts. No one is immortal, so we are all slaves to death whether we believe or not. The only "guarantee" we have is our faith that Christ can unshackle us from it.

Success is a relative term. It can be measured not with how much you have or make but how happy you are. And in Christ we are greatful for every day, for everything even if it is small and meager; when we get sick we don't complain "how can this happen to me...' but thank the Lord for all the health you have been given until now, or thank Him that you are blessed enough to have the means to be healed with.

If you can concentrate on that, intellectual discussions on whether we earn or salvation points or not become meanignless chatter.

We understand God's grace differently, but without us being the object of that grace, being able to accept it freely, or freely cooperating with God in that grace, makes grace meaningless too. So, salvation does depend on our being here to receive it. Otherwise, what's the point? No man, no grace. :)

5,675 posted on 05/05/2006 6:09:47 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
Are there not tons of things in normal life that we would consider to be fully earned, even though they would fit your definition of being a secondary cause? When a baseball player hits a home run, would you call that "secondary" because technically, he couldn't have done it without the owner hiring him, and the manager putting him in the lineup?

In no human example can we compare to God and man completely. This is because God has given us EVERY gift. Both natural and supernatural. He has given us our talents that we consider ingrained, as well as the supernatural gifts of faith, hope and love. Thus, God is ALWAYS the First Cause. But He allows ALL of His creation to be Secondary Causes of their own actions. Thus, plants grow of their own accord, under God's laws of nature. Animals procreate and move on their own accord. All the while, though, they are under God's "indirect" guidance and Providence. When need be, I would presume that God would ensure that an animal was in the right place at the right time if it suited God's plan of salvation for mankind.

With man, we are dealing with a creature with intellect and free will. God continues to allow His creature to be a secondary cause. Thus, man eats or sleeps when it suits him. However, this does not take away from God as the First Cause. He is always indirectly involved because He gave man all of his abilities - AND can intervene when it suits His purpose. Because man always has the choice to do "x" or "y", free choice remains. God does not take that away, but He does make "x" look as the best choice - and God foresees that man will choose "x". This doesn't take away man's free will AND God's will was done. Thus, we can say that man did "x", though we also say that man cannot brag, because God "moved" him to choose "x", making it more to the man's desire. Man is given credit by God for choosing "x", he is given merit, since He cooperated with God's will. Merit is given to man because and ONLY because God binds HIMSELF to pay man a reward for his obedience - which God enables but not without the possibility of man's rejection.

Regards

5,676 posted on 05/05/2006 6:10:01 AM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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