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To: Forest Keeper
Are there not tons of things in normal life that we would consider to be fully earned, even though they would fit your definition of being a secondary cause? When a baseball player hits a home run, would you call that "secondary" because technically, he couldn't have done it without the owner hiring him, and the manager putting him in the lineup?

In no human example can we compare to God and man completely. This is because God has given us EVERY gift. Both natural and supernatural. He has given us our talents that we consider ingrained, as well as the supernatural gifts of faith, hope and love. Thus, God is ALWAYS the First Cause. But He allows ALL of His creation to be Secondary Causes of their own actions. Thus, plants grow of their own accord, under God's laws of nature. Animals procreate and move on their own accord. All the while, though, they are under God's "indirect" guidance and Providence. When need be, I would presume that God would ensure that an animal was in the right place at the right time if it suited God's plan of salvation for mankind.

With man, we are dealing with a creature with intellect and free will. God continues to allow His creature to be a secondary cause. Thus, man eats or sleeps when it suits him. However, this does not take away from God as the First Cause. He is always indirectly involved because He gave man all of his abilities - AND can intervene when it suits His purpose. Because man always has the choice to do "x" or "y", free choice remains. God does not take that away, but He does make "x" look as the best choice - and God foresees that man will choose "x". This doesn't take away man's free will AND God's will was done. Thus, we can say that man did "x", though we also say that man cannot brag, because God "moved" him to choose "x", making it more to the man's desire. Man is given credit by God for choosing "x", he is given merit, since He cooperated with God's will. Merit is given to man because and ONLY because God binds HIMSELF to pay man a reward for his obedience - which God enables but not without the possibility of man's rejection.

Regards

5,676 posted on 05/05/2006 6:10:01 AM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
Man is given credit by God for choosing "x", he is given merit, since He cooperated with God's will

But, more importantly, without man capable of receiving grace, the entire idea of grace becomes meaningless.

5,679 posted on 05/05/2006 6:44:42 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: jo kus
When need be, I would presume that God would ensure that an animal was in the right place at the right time if it suited God's plan of salvation for mankind.

Sure, I think of Noah's ark.

Thus, we can say that man did "x", though we also say that man cannot brag, because God "moved" him to choose "x", making it more to the man's desire. Man is given credit by God for choosing "x", he is given merit, since He cooperated with God's will.

So one key is what does "moved" mean? I don't see God's "moving" as His making of a generous offer. To me, "moving" brings up images of causation, which is the way I see it.

Merit is given to man because and ONLY because God binds HIMSELF to pay man a reward for his obedience - which God enables but not without the possibility of man's rejection.

But it is still merit. In your view, God makes a conditional promise and man has to earn the fulfillment of that promise. Man has to go first.

6,028 posted on 05/09/2006 3:27:21 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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