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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
My question is that SINCE free will is free, and uncoerced, and of man, then how is this not earning our salvation? I'll even throw out intent in any negative sense. Isn't it true that if a man performs "X" amount of deeds to achieve a level of Christ-likeness to an "X" degree, then he is saved? Even if all the deeds were done from love, is this still not earning it?

A fair question. First, we must remember that God wills all men to be saved. HE predestines men before they were born - knowing whether they will accept or reject Him. It is His graces that enable man to do works of faith, hope and love. NOTHING we do without God can be pleasing or salvific to God. Recall, we believe we cooperate, we do not believe we initiate or are able to earn in a strict sense any merit. Thus, every good work we do is a result of God's good gifts given to us AND our cooperation with Him. Both are necessary, and thus, salvation is not earned by man.

The only sense that we "earn" salvation is in a secondary manner - relying on God's promises of salvation IF we obey His commandments. By obeying God, we merit a reward strictly based on God's righteous desire to reward us for accepting His gifts. But strictly speaking, we can merit nothing ALONE since we give God nothing that He has not already given us. Certainly, we cannot make God owe us anything, so our salvation is entirely dependent upon His righteousness and seeing an imperfect man as still righteous in His eyes due to His familial loving concern for His children. He has held out an inheritance freely given, and as long as we do not reject this inheritance, we are given this gift as a reward in heaven (for not rejecting Him).

Regards

5,387 posted on 05/02/2006 7:29:21 AM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
Recall, we believe we cooperate, we do not believe we initiate or are able to earn in a strict sense any merit. Thus, every good work we do is a result of God's good gifts given to us AND our cooperation with Him. Both are necessary, and thus, salvation is not earned by man...The only sense that we "earn" salvation is in a secondary manner - relying on God's promises of salvation IF we obey His commandments. By obeying God, we merit a reward strictly based on God's righteous desire to reward us for accepting His gifts. But strictly speaking, we can merit nothing ALONE since we give God nothing that He has not already given us

That is spot on. Salvation is not something we go "shopping" for in a church. We don't say, I will light 5 candles and "earn" five "points".

5,435 posted on 05/02/2006 8:03:53 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: jo kus; kosta50
Recall, we believe we cooperate, we do not believe we initiate or are able to earn in a strict sense any merit. ... The only sense that we "earn" salvation is in a secondary manner - relying on God's promises of salvation IF we obey His commandments. By obeying God, we merit a reward strictly based on God's righteous desire to reward us for accepting His gifts. But strictly speaking, we can merit nothing ALONE since we give God nothing that He has not already given us.

I'm with you for the beginning of your post, but here I get confused. If I understand you, then man's use of free will to initiate good deeds, or acceptance of His gifts doesn't count as real initiative because God first took the initiative to offer us the gifts. This is initiative and merit in the secondary sense? To me, that sounds like a simple timing issue. If my boss simply tells me to accomplish "X", and gives me the tools, but does not tell me what to do step by step, is my initiative in completing the task really secondary?

I still do not understand why the distinction makes a difference in whether we earn our salvation or not. Are there not tons of things in normal life that we would consider to be fully earned, even though they would fit your definition of being a secondary cause? When a baseball player hits a home run, would you call that "secondary" because technically, he couldn't have done it without the owner hiring him, and the manager putting him in the lineup?

5,667 posted on 05/05/2006 12:05:09 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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