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To: kosta50; jo kus
FK: "But, if we persevere through our own actions, then why isn’t that earning salvation?"

Being "saved" in Orthodoxy (and I am quite sure in Catholicism too) means "how Christ-like" you are -- hitting the mark. How Christ-like is sufficient? As much as possible! That is why we venerate our saints, people who have attained that "holiness" about them through works of faith, through meekness, through renunciation of everything worldly, through humility, through love, through self-sacrifice, etc.

I appreciate your (entire) post, but I'm not sure how it answers my question. My understanding of salvation in Catholicism is as you say also, a lifelong process that really isn't completed until after death. During life, we use our free will to perform various works of faith and other godly deeds in order to become more Christ-like. My question is that SINCE free will is free, and uncoerced, and of man, then how is this not earning our salvation? I'll even throw out intent in any negative sense. Isn't it true that if a man performs "X" amount of deeds to achieve a level of Christ-likeness to an "X" degree, then he is saved? Even if all the deeds were done from love, is this still not earning it?

5,376 posted on 05/02/2006 2:00:10 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
My question is that SINCE free will is free, and uncoerced, and of man, then how is this not earning our salvation? I'll even throw out intent in any negative sense. Isn't it true that if a man performs "X" amount of deeds to achieve a level of Christ-likeness to an "X" degree, then he is saved? Even if all the deeds were done from love, is this still not earning it?

A fair question. First, we must remember that God wills all men to be saved. HE predestines men before they were born - knowing whether they will accept or reject Him. It is His graces that enable man to do works of faith, hope and love. NOTHING we do without God can be pleasing or salvific to God. Recall, we believe we cooperate, we do not believe we initiate or are able to earn in a strict sense any merit. Thus, every good work we do is a result of God's good gifts given to us AND our cooperation with Him. Both are necessary, and thus, salvation is not earned by man.

The only sense that we "earn" salvation is in a secondary manner - relying on God's promises of salvation IF we obey His commandments. By obeying God, we merit a reward strictly based on God's righteous desire to reward us for accepting His gifts. But strictly speaking, we can merit nothing ALONE since we give God nothing that He has not already given us. Certainly, we cannot make God owe us anything, so our salvation is entirely dependent upon His righteousness and seeing an imperfect man as still righteous in His eyes due to His familial loving concern for His children. He has held out an inheritance freely given, and as long as we do not reject this inheritance, we are given this gift as a reward in heaven (for not rejecting Him).

Regards

5,387 posted on 05/02/2006 7:29:21 AM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
During life, we use our free will to perform various works of faith and other godly deeds in order to become more Christ-like

No, we don't do that "in order" to become Christ-like; the faith converts our hearts. We grow in Chirst. We seek God to lead us, we willingly ask of Him to grant us the grace; we do so through prayer. God, in turn, gives us oportunities to put what we believe in practice.

We don't go to church so that we may be saved; we go to church to praise God, because we want to. If it is an "obligation" or if it is done to "earn points" it's for all the wrong reasons.

5,428 posted on 05/02/2006 7:35:31 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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