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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; annalex; Agrarian; HarleyD; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: "Does God knock on everyone's heart equally, since God loves everyone? If so, then whose intellect would choose hell over heaven?"

The Fathers certainly tell us that God does exactly this, with the possible exception of a remark or two from +Augustine which are outside the consensus patrum.

Thank you for the quotes. I'm not sure if they address whether grace is bestowed in equal measure to everyone. It has been argued to me that everyone gets sufficient grace, but that doesn't mean in equal amounts to everyone. For example, wouldn't a Bishop need extra grace to go through life in celibacy? Or, is that kind of thing not a matter of grace?

The fact is, FK, that people don't "choose" hell; they choose to reject God because becoming like God is difficult. It requires that we reject our nature.

That's funny because I would say the exact opposite. I would say that rejecting God is only following our nature. Several Bible passages supporting the idea of our being born with a sinful nature are in my 3739. Is there Biblical support to say that we are born with sufficient grace to come to God?

3,753 posted on 03/19/2006 10:13:36 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis

"For example, wouldn't a Bishop need extra grace to go through life in celibacy?"

Absolutely. He receives grace at his monastic tonsure (which would give grace to maintain the struggle of celibacy), and at his consecration to being a bishop (which would give grace to live that celibacy out in the world -- bishops are the only monastics who by definition are charged with living out their monastic life in the world.) God gives grace through these sacramental acts.

My son recently made an interesting remark to me when we were discussing the preaching of various Orthodox clergy that we have known over the years. He observed that there was something different about the preaching of bishops -- that it seemed to be more powerful and penetrating, even if the bishop wasn't a particularly "gifted" preacher by "objective standards."

I pointed out to him that it was not his imagination, and that this was not a result of the psychological effect of us seeing his special vestments and knowing that he is a bishop.

In the Orthodox Church, only bishops are specifically charged in their consecration to preach and teach the faith. Preaching is not, as far as I know, even mentioned in the ordination services of priests and deacons. When a priest preaches, it is through the blessing of the bishop who can't be there every Sunday. Bishops receive a special grace to preach, and the presence of that grace is usually unmistakable.

My son didn't know about the particular relationship between preaching and bishops, and yet he had zeroed in on it through observation.


3,755 posted on 03/19/2006 11:01:31 AM PST by Agrarian
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; AlbionGirl
I would say that rejecting God is only following our nature.

And the fact that men don't understand this is part of our fallen nature. We presume we are capable of doing righteousness when Scripture tells us without the inner work of the Holy Spirit we can do nothing BUT sin.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." -- Jeremiah 13:23

But there are those who will tell us "that's not me. I can change my spots and do what even Adam, with free will, was incapable of doing -- obey."

And the deception continues...

3,757 posted on 03/19/2006 11:10:51 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; kosta50; annalex; Agrarian; HarleyD; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
Kolokotronis: The fact is, FK, that people don't "choose" hell; they choose to reject God because becoming like God is difficult. It requires that we reject our nature.

Forest Keeper: That's funny because I would say the exact opposite. I would say that rejecting God is only following our nature.

I think you have bumped up against one of the major differences between Eastern and Western Christianity. And understanding this difference is the key to unlocking the meaning of the Patristic writings.

In the West, "nature" and "grace" are in opposition to each other. In the East, man's "nature" becomes itself only in "grace". Here is the way John Meyendorff expresses the difference in Byzantine Theology:

Grace gives man his "natural" development. This basic presupposition explains why the terms "nature" and "grace", when used by Byzantine authors, have a meaning quite different from the Western usage; rather than being in direct opposition, the terms "nature" and "grace" express a dynamic, living, and necessary relation between God and man.

The distinction, I think, explains why the respective positions about the bondage of the will and free will can never be reconciled, at least not in the way the current debate is framed.

3,758 posted on 03/19/2006 11:39:46 AM PST by stripes1776
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