Yes.
The Bible NEVER, EVER states that Christ died for the sin of all men. It NEVER says this.
I gave you two verses that says just that, both from the Johannine Corpus... What more do you want? Christ died for the sin of the world (nothing about the word "all". The world. How you gonna get around that?) - just as Adam's sin was sufficient to remove sanctifying grace from all men. It appears we agree that Christ's work is not efficacious for all men, though.
As to your freedom to use "all", you have to prove that ALL does not mean ALL (universal). I think I have sufficiently shown that Paul was not making an universal statement, but merely repeating some Psalms that talk about the wicked. Want proof??
"Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart. They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. Thou hast commanded [us] to keep thy precepts diligently." Psalm 119:1-4. By the way, this Psalm is an incredible testimony to the Law. Consider reading its 176 verses!
As you can see, the Scripture tells us that some men DO seek God. Thus, knowing that God cannot contradict, we must try to ascertain these apparent contradictions. After a bit of reading, we see the Psalmster and Paul are refering to the wicked, not ALL (universal) men. This cannot be said with your interpretation of "all" in refuting that Jesus died for the sin of all men.
That is referring to intercession in prayer. (Rom 8:26)We always need prayer throughout our lives.
Certainly. So what is the answer? Why does God's Spirit intercede for us today if "all is done"?
I agree with you that He does. He answers our accusers and hears our pleas. At the time of judgment He will act as our personal lawyer and judge. (A very nice deal for the elect, BTW! :) When Christ died His work to pay for our sins was complete. No further payment, through good works, or receiving of sacraments, or anything else was required. But that doesn't mean that Jesus then exited our lives. He remains very active, IMO.
You want your cake and eat it too. What you give in the beginning (Jesus intercedes for us today) is taken away (His work to pay for our sins was complete) in the next sentence. Is Christ active or not? Is His "work" finished?
(re: why we ask for forgiveness of sins) it was so that He would forgive our sins. Forgiveness of sins is necessary for salvation. After salvation, it is part of our sanctification, and is the will of God
YES! Wonderful. And some will not ask for this forgivness that Christ has won for all men, correct? Thus, Christ died for ALL men, but ALL men will not ASK for that gift that was won by our Savior. Without ASKING, we shall not RECEIVE this forgiveness, nor salvation.
He doesn't. :) (re: giving men the power to forgive sins)
You are in denial.
"he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. " John 20:22-23
What more can I say?
Paul is saying that all believers should spread the good news of the Gospel to the unsaved. Notice that in 18 and 19 it is God who is doing all the reconciling, there is no "Co-".
Sadly, ignoring Scripture is starting to become a trademark here.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Scripture is showing it is Paul and other elders he is refering to when he is speaking to the Corinthians. "God asks you through us". God beseeches you by us". "WE pray YOU be in God's good graces". Of course God is doing the reconciling - THROUGH "us", men who have been previously been given such authority.
Christ didn't die to save the non-elect.
Your version of God does not love man unconditionally, does He? Christ died for all men. Unconditionally.
Jesus already knew that His words would fall on deaf ears among the lost, yet He spoke to them anyway. He was showing us what to do because we don't have His inside knowledge.
Interesting. So Jesus KNEW that His teachings would fall on deaf ears - but He did it anyways. BUT. Jesus DID NOT DIE for all men, even though that would ALSO fall on deaf ears. I have discovered another inconsistent statement of your theology.
I know that Jesus taught a principle to us that we should love our enemies, but do you believe it is absolute? Does God love satan?
LOL!!! PRINCIPLE? That is the heart of the Gospel! To go BEYOND the Law. We are to LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY, just as God does. Even the Gentiles "love" those who treat them well. Big friggin' deal. Christians are CALLED to LOVE as God loves. How could you not know that? Of course God loves Satan. But Satan, sadly, is the Prodigal Son who never will return. Satan is part of God's plan. Without Satan, how could man have received the Incarnation?
You've said it many times, and it is a difficult concept for me because I DO know. :)
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Paul speaking to 'eternally saved' Christians. 1 Cor 10:12. I will disagree with you until you can prove that 10 years from now, you will continue to abide in Christ...
Brother, isn't it clear that WE can come into righteousness, or come into wickedness, even after our Baptism/Sinner's Prayer? (re: Ez 18:21-24)
Sort of...
LOL!!! Are you SURE you believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, or is it more correct to say "your interpretation of Scripture is inspired by God"? I see an accelerating move away from what is clearly delineated in the Scriptures so that your little Calvinist mindset does not totally come crashing down. Just in this letter, you appear to be in total denial of the plain meaning of over a half dozen Scripture verses! Anything to save poor old Calvin.
She told me, in essence, that once you confess your sins to a priest you are in a "saved" state, such that if you were hit by a bus walking home from the church you would be saved. However, upon the commission of the next mortal sin, you were then automatically transferred into a damned state until such time as you would have your next confession. There were standard "outs" that she and I discussed, such as what would happen if you got run over by a bus on your way to confession. :) Anyway, that's what made me think of this as a ping-pong effect. It appeared to me that salvation was won and lost, and won and lost all the time. So, that's where it comes from.
OK. Well, we don't bounce in and out of the state of mortal sin! She is speaking more hypothetically, I believe. Yes, after confession, and subsequent death, our soul will likely attain eternal life. But mortal sins are not something done everyday. They require "grievous sin, done willingly, and knowing the sin will separate us from God". All three must be present. We aren't forced or we don't sin this way through ignorance. It is a malicious and premeditated sin. Do you think Catholics or Protestants move into and out of God's love like that? Men do need to be "rehealed" or "saved again", if you will. But this is not some common occurence. Just as Ez 18 mentions, righteous men can become wicked and vice versus, depending on their actions!
Regards
What is the implied contradiction? The passage you quote does not say that all men seek the Lord. It says that some do. What does this have to do with Romans? Besides, you still haven't answered my question about the significance of what Paul is saying under your interpretation. The wicked sin? Call the New York Times. OTOH, it would be a useful piece of theology if Paul meant that all are born into sin and that all will fall short of the glory of God. It would have taken him a quarter of a breath to excuse Mary, but he didn't.
Why does God's Spirit intercede for us today if "all is done"?
It is simply the execution of one of God's promises. You rely on this idea all the time when you say that the Spirit continues to guide the Church. If one relies on God being good on His promises, then it is considered already done, but for the actual execution. If one does not have reliance, then one waits and hopes that God will fulfill His word.
You want your cake and eat it too. What you give in the beginning (Jesus intercedes for us today) is taken away (His work to pay for our sins was complete) in the next sentence. Is Christ active or not? Is His "work" finished?
It is finished, as far as we need be concerned regarding justification. The only thing left is execution. If one believes God keeps His promises then it is as good as done. If one does not, then he hopes and waits that God will deliver. Christ and the Spirit also continue to work to sanctify us. This is a future included promise in the salvation model. And yes, I love eating cake. :)
And some will not ask for this forgiveness that Christ has won for all men, correct? Thus, Christ died for ALL men, but ALL men will not ASK for that gift that was won by our Savior.
All of God's elect will ask for forgiveness via God's grace. All others will not be able to with a true heart. Anyone can say the words, it doesn't make it efficacious. Therefore, it is unnecessary that Christ died for the lost.
You are in denial.
"he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. " John 20:22-23
The Apostles were to be witnesses to God's power, not practitioners of it. They were to give the message that those who repent and believe in Jesus can be assured of forgiveness, and those who refuse to repent can be assured that their sins are not forgiven. Who is a sin against? If you believe that a sin is against God, then that shows that the Apostles had no standing to forgive sins. If I hurt someone else, you have no standing to forgive me. It is the same here. The Apostles were declaring, WITH authority, what God would do if someone asked Him for forgiveness.
"God asks you through us". God beseeches you by us". "WE pray YOU be in God's good graces". Of course God is doing the reconciling - THROUGH "us", men who have been previously been given such authority.
Does God do anything without man's help? I don't know how God gets through a day, if it weren't for man to assist Him. We appear to be indispensable.
Your version of God does not love man unconditionally, does He? Christ died for all men. Unconditionally.
What can I say? That's fair enough. If God loved all men, then all men would be saved.
So Jesus KNEW that His teachings would fall on deaf ears - but He did it anyways. BUT. Jesus DID NOT DIE for all men, even though that would ALSO fall on deaf ears. I have discovered another inconsistent statement of your theology.
There is no inconsistency. In the first, Jesus was teaching both His then audience, although He knew for some if would have no effect, and He was also teaching US that we should spread the Gospel to everyone. In the second, He died. He didn't need to teach us how to die. It's a completely different concept. Besides, you are the one who is inconsistent using this logic. You know Jesus gave truth to the lawgivers, and you know they were not saved. Yet, you say that Christ died for all men. That doesn't match. The only way you can be consistent is to show that everyone Jesus ever spoke to was saved, and there is no way you can show that.
Christians are CALLED to LOVE as God loves. How could you not know that? Of course God loves Satan. But Satan, sadly, is the Prodigal Son who never will return. Satan is part of God's plan. Without Satan, how could man have received the Incarnation? (emphasis added)
This is astounding. I never knew this was Catholic teaching. Yes, satan is part of God's plan, but the scripture in no way supports your assertion that God loves him, or the non-elect sinner.
Ps. 5:5 : The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
Ps. 11:5 : The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
Lev. 20:23 : You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
Prov. 6:16-19 : 16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.(emphasis added)
Hos. 9:15 : "Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.
What, God hates them all in the good way? :)
I will disagree with you until you can prove that 10 years from now, you will continue to abide in Christ...
Then you will have to wait 10 years, since you have already said there is no proof you would accept. :)