FK: "Could God put love into these hearts if He wanted to?"
"PUT" love into one's heart? Is that love? A person can be disposed of to serve others, to be more open to God's graces and blessings, but in the end, love is not love if one does not choose.
Therefore, all of the love for God that we have comes only from within ourselves, and not from God. Just as God created satan, who later became evil, so did God create us, and we later developed love for Him on our own? Is this a fair statement of your view?
FK: "You have always looked to the mouth of "Johnny Sinner", as he says his prayer, for your guarantee [of assurance]. It's not there. The guarantee is in God's word. ...
God's word? You hear voices? What are you talking about? As to your confidence that your prayers took, how confident were you immediately following the first time you did it - then fell away, a proposition that could have lasted until your death?
I'm sorry. Whenever I refer to "God's word" I am talking about the Bible. I didn't know that Catholics don't see it that way. ... When I said the sinner's prayer as a teenager I was very confident of my salvation. That never changed, even when I fell away during college, because at that time I believed in OSAS. (Lucky for me :) Had I not been of the elect then that condition would have lasted until my death. But, praise Jesus, it didn't turn out like that. :)
FK: "Wow! You're strict. What would you accept as evidence or proof? How many God points do I need? :)"
There is NOTHING you can do that will prove you are of the elect 5 years from now. What sort of question is that? All we can do is look at our current stance with the Lord and our past - trusting in God's mercy that if we were to die today, He would have brought us into heaven.
Well, at least you answered my question, so thank you. :) I believe that through scripture, God offers all of His elect the gift of assurance, and I have just chosen to accept it.
I am only saying that you are being presumptuous on your status with the Lord 5 years from now, or the day of your death. God's promises are not for those who turn away and don't repent. It has nothing to do with being Protestant or being Catholic.
Then if I am following your logic, since no one can say what his status will be with the Lord 5 years from now, then ALL of God's promises are USELESS to anyone TODAY. NO ONE can know if God's promises apply to him personally, so they are all useless. Is that what you mean?
God knows whether you are of the elect, but you don't know. Haven't you admitted that reciting the Sinner's Prayer does not make you of the Elect? Thus, you are saying that your good deeds are the basis for your understanding of your being of the elect.
I certainly have admitted that saying the sinner's prayer does not change me from being of the non-elect into being of the elect. I believe that is true. I don't think at all that whatever my good deeds are, this is a basis for assurance. The assurance comes strictly from the Bible, and the good deeds are a simple evidence that I am on the right path. I actually believe that for some people it is possible to fall away without really ever realizing or intending it to happen. So, if I ever noticed, or it was pointed out to me, that my good deeds took a dramatic downturn, then it would be a bright red flag to me to take stock of my condition in Christ.
I know of people who were Christian for many years, and fell away from Christ. Who would have thought - 20 years of good deeds - now they are agnostic... but you know you won't be that way...
I am very sorry about those people. You have said that I cannot prove it to you, but 'Yes', I know. I am by no means better or smarter than any of them, it is just something that speaks to me from scripture.
[From the article FK cited:] Logically, if we are still in jeopardy of somehow losing this salvation, we are not in a very “safe” place.
Please. That is not logical. Nothing there about permanent safety is suggested by your quote. After King David expanded Israel's territory, providing peace and safety to all Jews during his rule, did that prevent the Assyrians and Babylonians from conquering ALL of Israel???
The author is obviously talking about salvational "safety", not physical safety. No one is ever guaranteed physical safety no matter who he is. Ask Jesus. :)
"Being saved" refers to past, present, and future utilizations. Paul uses all three tenses. If you like, I will post them. When Jesus healed someone, did that mean they never got sick again???
Do you equate a physical healing with the Biblical meaning of the word "saved"???
[continuing ...] When Jesus said "it was finished", it means His life was finished. He died. The suffering was over. He had completed His Father's will.
The only thing I DO agree with is that He completed His father's will. What do you say that will was?
[continuing ...] That doesn't mean HIS WORK was done! Christ's work continues to this day! He continues to bring people into the Kingdom of God! For example, I recall that Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD! Why would He do that if "His work was finished"? Why His continued teachings? Why breathe upon the Disciples, giving them the power to forgive sins? Why the Great Commission?
Nice try, but I specifically said "Does He have more work to do to pay for our sins?" You don't address that at all here.
[On Dt. 30:19, and to FK noting that it was actually Moses speaking and not God directly :] Sorry, Moses is giving God's revelation - or do you doubt that Scripture is God's Word? ... Sure, the point of view is human. From our point of view, we CHOOSE God or not. ...
No, I have no doubt that scripture is God's word. And, as Harley said earlier, this is an example of an outward call. It was for the same reason that we are to spread the Gospel to the whole world, as opposed to only a select few. That's why I thought it was important that the POV was human. The "choosing" is a human perception, when unknown to probably most who do it at the time, it was actually God who chose us first.
Apparently Job knows the answer to that one which was asked of him by God Himself.
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me... Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?" -- Job 38:1-3;36"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
No. I have said this from practically 3000 posts ago, that we can do nothing without God. What other ways can I write this to make it more clear? It is not EITHER/OR! It is not either God does EVERYTHING or man does EVERYTHING. Have you learned anything on the Catholic perspective that God and man cooperate to bring that man to heaven?
Whenever I refer to "God's word" I am talking about the Bible.
Yes, a pity you so constrict God's sovereignty and ability to communicate through other means than a 2000 year old book.
Had I not been of the elect
There you go again, presuming. Presumption in God's eyes is sinful and takes away from His Divine Sovereignty. Rather than making such a self-claim, you should be more humbly submissive to God's Will, working out your salvation in fear and trembling.
God offers all of His elect the gift of assurance
That gift presumes you will PERSEVERE. Something that YOU cannot know. I have clearly given you enough examples of people who have fallen away and made the same self-claim to being of the elect. Now, a person like that - YOU will say she never WAS elect. How do you know those comments will not be addressed to you in five years?
Then if I am following your logic, since no one can say what his status will be with the Lord 5 years from now, then ALL of God's promises are USELESS to anyone TODAY
I don't understand how my logic leads that way! I can know I am in the Lord today. He abides in me, and I know this by my obedience to His commandments. But what does that have to do with five years from now?
The assurance comes strictly from the Bible
You are misinterpreting the Bible. God's promises are for those who persevere until the end. How have you missed this theme in Scriptures? It is quite common.
So, if I ever noticed, or it was pointed out to me, that my good deeds took a dramatic downturn, then it would be a bright red flag to me to take stock of my condition in Christ
IF! That is the problem. Some people are SO confident of their status, they DO NOT NOTICE!
I am very sorry about those people. You have said that I cannot prove it to you, but 'Yes', I know. I am by no means better or smarter than any of them, it is just something that speaks to me from scripture.
"It" spoke to them, as well...You keep ignoring this, don't you? This theology is misleading many Christians into a false sense of security, one that God is not offering. His salvation is conditional - one of perseverance in faith and love, not in a one-time declaration.
The author is obviously talking about salvational "safety"
What does Paul say about that in 1 Cor 10:12?
The only thing I DO agree with is that He completed His father's will. What do you say that will was?
Christ's mission on the cross is done. He has earned the remission of the sin of all men, just as Adam earned the lose of sanctifying grace of all men. But His mission to mankind is not done! He continues to intercede for us. He continues to call to men, to move them to accept the Father in heaven. I don't picture Christ in heaven with a Pina Colada in hand sitting next to the Father - "well, my job is done"...
Does He have more work to do to pay for our sins?"
Clearly, no. His death is sufficient for the remission of the sin of the ENTIRE WORLD!
But that is not Christ's only mission.
an example of an outward call
LOL!!! Of course Deut 30:19 is an outward call from God to men! One that we can CHOOSE - either life or death, as my tagline clearly states. Yes, God chose us, but He also is aware of our choosing - since He sees all time as one event. I think Calvinists have problems with this idea that God and man do not exist within the same mode of operation regarding time.
Regards