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To: Forest Keeper
Therefore, all of the love for God that we have comes only from within ourselves

No. I have said this from practically 3000 posts ago, that we can do nothing without God. What other ways can I write this to make it more clear? It is not EITHER/OR! It is not either God does EVERYTHING or man does EVERYTHING. Have you learned anything on the Catholic perspective that God and man cooperate to bring that man to heaven?

Whenever I refer to "God's word" I am talking about the Bible.

Yes, a pity you so constrict God's sovereignty and ability to communicate through other means than a 2000 year old book.

Had I not been of the elect

There you go again, presuming. Presumption in God's eyes is sinful and takes away from His Divine Sovereignty. Rather than making such a self-claim, you should be more humbly submissive to God's Will, working out your salvation in fear and trembling.

God offers all of His elect the gift of assurance

That gift presumes you will PERSEVERE. Something that YOU cannot know. I have clearly given you enough examples of people who have fallen away and made the same self-claim to being of the elect. Now, a person like that - YOU will say she never WAS elect. How do you know those comments will not be addressed to you in five years?

Then if I am following your logic, since no one can say what his status will be with the Lord 5 years from now, then ALL of God's promises are USELESS to anyone TODAY

I don't understand how my logic leads that way! I can know I am in the Lord today. He abides in me, and I know this by my obedience to His commandments. But what does that have to do with five years from now?

The assurance comes strictly from the Bible

You are misinterpreting the Bible. God's promises are for those who persevere until the end. How have you missed this theme in Scriptures? It is quite common.

So, if I ever noticed, or it was pointed out to me, that my good deeds took a dramatic downturn, then it would be a bright red flag to me to take stock of my condition in Christ

IF! That is the problem. Some people are SO confident of their status, they DO NOT NOTICE!

I am very sorry about those people. You have said that I cannot prove it to you, but 'Yes', I know. I am by no means better or smarter than any of them, it is just something that speaks to me from scripture.

"It" spoke to them, as well...You keep ignoring this, don't you? This theology is misleading many Christians into a false sense of security, one that God is not offering. His salvation is conditional - one of perseverance in faith and love, not in a one-time declaration.

The author is obviously talking about salvational "safety"

What does Paul say about that in 1 Cor 10:12?

The only thing I DO agree with is that He completed His father's will. What do you say that will was?

Christ's mission on the cross is done. He has earned the remission of the sin of all men, just as Adam earned the lose of sanctifying grace of all men. But His mission to mankind is not done! He continues to intercede for us. He continues to call to men, to move them to accept the Father in heaven. I don't picture Christ in heaven with a Pina Colada in hand sitting next to the Father - "well, my job is done"...

Does He have more work to do to pay for our sins?"

Clearly, no. His death is sufficient for the remission of the sin of the ENTIRE WORLD!

But that is not Christ's only mission.

an example of an outward call

LOL!!! Of course Deut 30:19 is an outward call from God to men! One that we can CHOOSE - either life or death, as my tagline clearly states. Yes, God chose us, but He also is aware of our choosing - since He sees all time as one event. I think Calvinists have problems with this idea that God and man do not exist within the same mode of operation regarding time.

Regards

3,507 posted on 03/13/2006 5:51:19 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus
No. I have said this from practically 3000 posts ago, that we can do nothing without God. What other ways can I write this to make it more clear? It is not EITHER/OR! It is not either God does EVERYTHING or man does EVERYTHING. Have you learned anything on the Catholic perspective that God and man cooperate to bring that man to heaven?

I have heard you every time you have said we can do nothing without God. And, I have also heard you when you contradict yourself with the next thought, that man determines his own salvation by making a free will decision to accept Christ, without God's "interference". Your version of "free will" has always meant "separate from God", or "independent of God". Otherwise, you would say it is not truly free will. Am I wrong?

Yes, you say that God nudges, and He helps, and He guides, but the bottom line decision, the MONEY DECISION, is always on us alone. Free will means you can reject help and guidance, so it really is only on you. THAT is a man-centered theology.

Yes, a pity you so constrict God's sovereignty and ability to communicate through other means than a 2000 year old book.

As I find it a pity that you find the Bible so inadequate that it must be supplemented by the words of popular men.

FK: "The assurance comes strictly from the Bible."

You are misinterpreting the Bible. God's promises are for those who persevere until the end. How have you missed this theme in Scriptures?

Those who persevere are unknown to any human, according to you. God's promises are only for them. How do you not see that THEREFORE, God's promises are of no value to any particular person because no one can know if they apply to him?

"It" spoke to them [the missionaries who fell away], as well...You keep ignoring this, don't you? This theology is misleading many Christians into a false sense of security, one that God is not offering.

I have no idea what (who) spoke to those missionaries originally. Isn't it ironic that you are the one who presumes to know? :)

FK: "The author is obviously talking about salvational "safety"

What does Paul say about that in 1 Cor 10:12?

He says we should never take our salvation for granted, and he was right. To take it for granted would be to cheapen it, and that's wrong. That's different from assurance, in which we have positive confidence in God's promises and we are grateful to Him for them and we seek to obey. Somewhere in heaven I imagine a scale of how many and what kind of sins each of the elect commit after salvation. Those who don't follow your verse very closely will do worse, and those who really follow it will do much better, and be rewarded. All will be in heaven.

Christ's mission on the cross is done. He has earned the remission of the sin of all men, just as Adam earned the lose of sanctifying grace of all men. But His mission to mankind is not done!

NO NO NO! I can't let you get away with that. :) You said Adam cost all of us sanctifying grace, meaning we are all lost when born. I would loosely agree with the principle. :) But then you said that Christ completed His mission by earning the remission of the sin of all mankind. Does that mean He earned it and is keeping it in His pocket until we do something to earn it for ourselves? That doesn't match what you have said before, and it doesn't sound complete at all.

Adam completed our downfall, but according to you, Christ did nothing of the sort in opposite. Christ only bought us a lottery ticket, for a "chance". I just think Christ is much more powerful than this. You appear to be making Adam more powerful that Christ.

3,629 posted on 03/16/2006 6:05:09 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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