I have never had any problem with God being omniscient. He doesn't just correctly guess everything we will ever do, He sees and He knows. He does see our response before we "choose", but the key is that He sees it before He creates us, physically. (You agreed that in real time God existed before man.)
[continuing ...] I never said man chooses God first. To us, He takes the initiative. But it is perfectly feasible to see that He would "see" our response as part of His initiative.
And there's the rub. How much of God's foreknowledge went into His decision on whom He would pick as the elect? I would say zero, and you can answer for yourself. If you say anything greater than zero, then that intrudes on God's sovereignty.
FK: "Obviously, it is no where in the Bible."
That God is not bound by creation? Do I need to prove that?
No, I was referring to my immediately prior sentences about your assertions that God chooses us and we choose Him simultaneously. I was saying I didn't think that was Biblically supported, and that I had not heard an explanation as to how that works. To what degree is God in control, how much luck is involved, how much credit do the elect deserve for making the right choice, etc.? That kind of thing.
God doesn't give everyone that sort of information. God gives EVEN THE GENTILES (Romans 2) a Natural Law, a law written on EVERYONE'S heart that tells them what is right and what is wrong. Everyone "knows" the Golden rule - "do unto others as you would have them do to you". Everyone "knows" that stealing is wrong, because if someone steals from THEM, they get upset...
I think it is an over generalization to say that the difference between right and wrong is written into EVERYONE's heart. I would say likewise about everyone knowing the Golden Rule. That rule is quickly learned through experience, but what says a person is born knowing it? There are just too many obvious exceptions to this idea. This sounds too "man-centered" to me.
God rains down His grace upon all, the good and the evil. God spreads His "seed" upon ALL ground. God even DIED for ALL men, not just the elect...Scripture clearly notes you are incorrect. God gives everyone sufficient grace, since He desires ALL men to be saved.
So God gives everyone SAVING grace? Your faith is more man-centered than I thought. Assuming you are talking about prevenient grace, here is an excerpt from A Short Response to the Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient Grace ... by John Hendryx:
"Arminian Similarities with Reformed Theology:
(1) All men need to be saved from God's wrath through the atoning work of Christ.
(2) Both Reformed and Arminians believe, that, without the grace of God, man is totally incapable of responding to the Gospel. In this both positions are in total agreement.
Arminian Differences with Reformed Theology in its understanding of grace:
Lets observe at least three ways in which prevenient grace sharply differs from the biblical view of monergism:
(1) That the Arminian doctrine of "prevenient grace" is universal to all persons on earth whether or not they have heard the gospel. (But doesn't the Bible state, "how can one be believe if they have not heard?" and "...faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." - Rom 10: 14-17. This view, then, embraces the idea that the gospel is not necessary for one to be saved. In spite of the overwhelming case made by Paul against the Gentiles in Romans 1-3, the Arminians believe that some who have never heard the gospel can actually live their whole life without violating their conscience in sinless perfection, and thus be saved.)
(2) Prevenient grace is not effectual but puts us in a "neutral" frame of reference (fallen man can either swing to receive or reject Christ) But this raises a question. If our desires are "neutral" what causes a man to choose one way or another? It is both biblical (A thorn tree does not produce grapes) and self-evident that we always choose something based on our greatest desires. If we do not desire God or the world, choice is either impossible or it is by chance. Lets be clear that this concept is no where taught in the Bible. Arminians awkwardly force this on the Scripture in order to hold their system together. This alone should lead us to reject it. Unaided reason should NEVER be the foundation of our theological insights.
(3) Arminians hold that while still unregenerate some can and will improve on grace ... that God's prevenient grace takes us part of the way to salvation but man's still unregenerate will does the rest. Therefore, if all human beings have this prevenient grace at some point in their life, it wasn't grace that makes men to differ but the persons who made use of what God gave them which makes them to differ.
In other words some men had the ability to create a right thought, generate a right affection, or originate a right volition that was autonomous, beyond and independent of grace that led to their salvation while other men could not come up with what was needed to be saved. Why do some men make use of grace and not others? So, to the Arminian, the grace of God is still penultimate while the sinners faith is ultimate, the sine qua non of his salvation. So whether or not God extends prevenient grace you still have the same result: one man from his unregenerate will generates belief, another man from his unregenerate will does not generate belief and rejects Christ. What makes these two persons to differ? If they both received prevenient grace, why does one believe and not the other? One is making a morally good choice and the other a morally bad choice. Any way to look at Arminian prevenient grace it is merit that ultimately makes men to differ and besides having no biblical support this makes the position untenable. They are making the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and do not agree that it is the effectual gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble. I guess Arminians believe that some beggars are more equal than others. ...
The Scriptures testify that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Even with prevenient grace theoretically putting humanity in a neutral position, we would still lack the quickening Spirit to give us what we need. How is it then that the natural man can understand or desire God independent of grace? Can a blind man see prior to his eyes being opened? Can a man with a heart of stone love and desire God before His heart is made flesh? How can a ox desire flesh to eat or water rise above its source? We believe that salvation is of the Lord from beginning to end. He deserves all the glory. While we were still helpless Christ died for us and His death purchased everything we need to be saved, including our regeneration. For an unregenerate man would not ever desire the things of God on his own. If God's grace does not save us then man still ultimately decides based on some principle within, either good or evil."
I will continue in my next post.
I respectfully disagree. How does the child making a cookie intrude on her mother's "sovereignty"?
To what degree is God in control, how much luck is involved, how much credit do the elect deserve for making the right choice, etc.? That kind of thing.
God is in total control. There is no luck. You are again placing God into time when He "decides". His decisions are based on what He "sees" all at once. His "vision" includes EVERYTHING WE DO! With this in mind, that God SEES all that we will do in time, while He is outside of time, how can there be any luck or chance???? God CANNOT err, since He has seen to the end of the world!
What you need to understand is that your prayer today is seen the same "time" that God created water. Since God has such "vision", why is it a problem for God to act based on our responses that He foresees outside of time before they even take place?
I think it is an over generalization to say that the difference between right and wrong is written into EVERYONE's heart. I would say likewise about everyone knowing the Golden Rule
It is a universal rule. ALL people KNOW when they have been "wronged"! Even the worse of crinimals have a sense of justice - that certain things should not be done to them or those they love. While they might not think it applies to them, they KNOW that certain things are wrong because their sense of justice is violated when an act (that they might perform on someone else) is done to them. Thus, Paul says "they have NO EXCUSE"
So God gives everyone SAVING grace?
God gives EVERYONE sufficient grace to be saved. He died for the sins of ALL men, not just those YOU choose or say. The problem is that men do not listen to that natural law placed in their hearts. Men refuse God's Graces. Scripture clearly tells us that we can refuse His gifts. It should appear obvious that men do. God will certainly judge us on what we know - and all are not given the same knowledge of God. But again, NO man is without excuse.
Your faith is more man-centered than I thought.
Meaning?
I have no comments on the discussion between Arminianism and Reformed Theology. I am Catholic, and I think we fall in between your two extremes.
Regards