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How much of God's foreknowledge went into His decision on whom He would pick as the elect? I would say zero, and you can answer for yourself. If you say anything greater than zero, then that intrudes on God's sovereignty.

I respectfully disagree. How does the child making a cookie intrude on her mother's "sovereignty"?

To what degree is God in control, how much luck is involved, how much credit do the elect deserve for making the right choice, etc.? That kind of thing.

God is in total control. There is no luck. You are again placing God into time when He "decides". His decisions are based on what He "sees" all at once. His "vision" includes EVERYTHING WE DO! With this in mind, that God SEES all that we will do in time, while He is outside of time, how can there be any luck or chance???? God CANNOT err, since He has seen to the end of the world!

What you need to understand is that your prayer today is seen the same "time" that God created water. Since God has such "vision", why is it a problem for God to act based on our responses that He foresees outside of time before they even take place?

I think it is an over generalization to say that the difference between right and wrong is written into EVERYONE's heart. I would say likewise about everyone knowing the Golden Rule

It is a universal rule. ALL people KNOW when they have been "wronged"! Even the worse of crinimals have a sense of justice - that certain things should not be done to them or those they love. While they might not think it applies to them, they KNOW that certain things are wrong because their sense of justice is violated when an act (that they might perform on someone else) is done to them. Thus, Paul says "they have NO EXCUSE"

So God gives everyone SAVING grace?

God gives EVERYONE sufficient grace to be saved. He died for the sins of ALL men, not just those YOU choose or say. The problem is that men do not listen to that natural law placed in their hearts. Men refuse God's Graces. Scripture clearly tells us that we can refuse His gifts. It should appear obvious that men do. God will certainly judge us on what we know - and all are not given the same knowledge of God. But again, NO man is without excuse.

Your faith is more man-centered than I thought.

Meaning?

I have no comments on the discussion between Arminianism and Reformed Theology. I am Catholic, and I think we fall in between your two extremes.

Regards

FK: "How much of God's foreknowledge went into His decision on whom He would pick as the elect? I would say zero, and you can answer for yourself. If you say anything greater than zero, then that intrudes on God's sovereignty.

I respectfully disagree. How does the child making a cookie intrude on her mother's "sovereignty"?

I would respectfully suggest you are comparing apples and oranges. Only God has His level of sovereignty, which is absolute over all manner of existence. The mother is only "sovereign" in that she is running the cookie operation from beginning to end. The daughter does nothing without the mother's allowance. The child forms some cookie dough, and I paint the kitchen. No big deal, others are still watchful of every step and are in complete control.

But to go outside of the mother's sovereignty, suppose there was a scream from outside and the mother had to rush out to see what was the matter. Then, suppose the daughter decided to fill up a new sheet of cookie dough, open the hot oven all by herself, and slip in the sheet. Of course, since she doesn't understand the timing element of it, she waits an arbitrary amount of time and then tries to take the hot cookie sheet out of the oven.

The mother then walks in. Very loosely speaking, under your view, the mother would thank her daughter for the cooperation that she gave in the mother's absence. Under my view, the daughter would be in huge trouble and not allowed to participate in cookie making for some time. You decide which is love.

God is in total control. There is no luck. You are again placing God into time when He "decides". His decisions are based on what He "sees" all at once. His "vision" includes EVERYTHING WE DO!

I see your answer as a contradiction. How can God be in "total control" if His decisions are based on anything other than His will? You say His decisions are based on what He foresees. If God really was in control, He would not even bother to foresee anything, He would just will "whatever" to happen, through means consistent with His nature. You are again erasing the issue out of existence by saying everything is simultaneous, or God is outside of time, THEREFORE EVERYTHING IS A MYSTERY. Your argument has never supported an actual position, it just defends the assertion that there can be no position.

Since God has such "vision", why is it a problem for God to act based on our responses that He foresees outside of time before they even take place?

There, you even made it easier for me. It's a problem because you make God DEPENDENT upon us and our decisions. You just said it, and I must disagree. God is sovereign, not dependent upon man.

God gives EVERYONE sufficient grace to be saved. He died for the sins of ALL men, not just those YOU choose or say. The problem is that men do not listen to that natural law placed in their hearts.

God created man, God gives everyone sufficient grace, only a very few are ever really saved. Did God do a lousy job? Didn't God already issue a total recall of the model once (except for 8)? Are you saying He couldn't get it right the second time either? Again, if God creates all of us and gives all of us sufficient grace, how do so few choose Him and so many choose against? I assume you're not going to tell me it's luck. :)