Yes, man can have either or both dependent and independent free will, depending on the circumstances. (This is just my way of putting it. :) Someone who is "saved", by my definition, does have dependent free will to do good in God's eyes. This person also has independent free will to sin, because God is not the author of sin. In contrast, a "lost" person has no free will at all to do good in God's eyes. He also has the independent free will to sin, but it is because all he has to work with is his original sin nature, so it is a fait accompli that he will sin.
Show me any post where I have said or implied that God irresistibly causes us to do everything, and I will eat my hat! :) I have said that God is in control of everything, but that is a very different concept. We are responsible for our sin, and you are most definitely called to obey the Commandments. I'll bet we'd even agree on the scriptures that say so! :)
I AM trying to understand you, but I am confused. Perhaps it is because we have different definitions of "being saved", and what IS "sanctification" for. Apparently, you believe that sanctification has nothing to do with our eternal destiny, that it only shows proof of our inevitable end.
OK, then I appreciate that you are trying. :) I will do the same.
I don't think I would use the words "sanctification has nothing to do with our eternal destiny". Barring some freak situation, a truly regenerated heart will be sanctified, necessarily. It's like a definitional thing, such a heart will want to grow in the Lord. Therefore, if a self-proclaimed saved person never experiences any sanctification, that would be an evidence that he was never saved. Regeneration is to birth as sanctification is to growth, and God's children will grow in Him.
The problem is that you seem to know you are going to heaven, regardless of what happens after your Sinner's Prayer. (despite our agreement that people fall away)
That has never been my argument since I was kindly showed Perseverence of the Saints, early on in this thread. That gets rid of the "regardless" issue, and proves that it both does matter what happens after what we call salvation, and that God will ensure that it does happen for His elect. Here is an article called Can a Christian lose his or her Salvation? which lays out the position:
"1. Classic Arminianism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
“The believer who loses his faith is damned.”
2. Antinomianism
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.
“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”
3. Classic Calvinism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.
“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”
Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data. How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not to worry, that they will be saved??? Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.
Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).
Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must be held side-by-side:
1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People
God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change.
• Colossians 1:21-23
• 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6
• Hebrews 10:26-31
• Hebrews 12:1
2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People
We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them.
• John 6:38-40
• John 10:28-29
• Romans 8:28-39
• Philippians 1:4-6
• Philippians 2:12-13
• 1 John 2:19
This first set of texts cannot be used to refute the second (Arminianism); nor can the second set of texts be used to refute the first (cheap grace). The point that makes the two compatible is the biblical teaching that faith (while commanded of everyone) is a gift from God to His elect. If faith is simply a human action of a free will, then it can be lost. But if saving faith is God's gift, then it cannot be lost. Can professing Christians fall away? Yes, and they will perish. Can true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ. The Bible teaches us that professing Christians who leave the faith were never truly believers (1 John 2:19; and notice the qualification even in Hebrews 10:39).
I'll spare you lunch, but you have countless times told me you are of the elect - THUS - you are irresistibly caused to do His Will. We both agree that the elect MUST do God's Will inevitably.
Barring some freak situation, a truly regenerated heart will be sanctified, necessarily.
yes, and how do you know if your heart is truly "regenerated" so that it will not fail to be elected? You have already told me that if you subsequently fell away, your knowledge of your "regeneration" must have been false!
Therefore, if a self-proclaimed saved person never experiences any sanctification, that would be an evidence that he was never saved.
That is why Catholics place the "salvation" event at the end, then we don't have to worry about such subterfuge and second-guessing and double talk. When Paul says we are saved as a result of our Baptism, he is speaking of our first step to eternal life - NOT that we have automatically received it. He is clear that we can fall away from this Baptismal saving.
Answer me this... If a Protestant of your brand does good deeds, is walking the walk, etc. and makes the claim to be of the elect - but then falls away, what happened to all of those good deeds? Who did them? HOW DID THIS PERSON DO GOOD? BY HIMSELF OR BY CHRIST? The problem with your view is that you discount all of the good that a man did - saying that Christ NEVER was within Him to begin with! But it is clear from Scripture that we can do nothing good WITHOUT GOD! So how did that fallen away person do good if He never had Christ to begin with? Oi. If you can answer that, you are on your way to explaining this "now you see it, now you don't" theology.
I wrote : The problem is that you seem to know you are going to heaven, regardless of what happens after your Sinner's Prayer. (despite our agreement that people fall away)
You wrote :That has never been my argument...
AHHH! [more hair flying around]. Oh boy...
You :He {Jesus} paid for the sins of His elect and forgave them their sins past, present, and future. When we ask God for forgiveness now for our sins, it is not to earn our way into heaven....Asking for forgiveness, after being saved, is an obedience to God, as He commands that we do so. It is for our own good, and when we obey Him we love Him. It is part of our sanctification
You: I know that we have different ideas of salvation, but when you say that a person's status can't be known until death, even if a hypothetical, then you are evading. [while you know your final status]
Me: So why does a Protestant KNOW he is saved after repeating it [sinner's prayer]?
You : You have been shown and given access to multiple assurance passages. Your leaders interpret them all out of existence, or assign new meanings to them contrary to plain meaning.
Me : Why doesn't God grant you full information? How do you explain that someone who calls himself the elect not know everything about God?
You : But God did grant me full information. That is, all the information I needed to come to Him. He made me an offer I couldn't refuse, so I experienced the "choice" of choosing Him. No one can ever know everything about God, but we can aspire to know everything that we need. That is available to the elect [you].
Perhaps I am getting the wrong message, but the above quotes from you in the last couple days are telling me that you think you are of the elect - today, tommorrow, next year, and forever. There are even more from earlier converstations. Your posts are full of such claims that you are of the elect! Why do you think I keep trying to tell you that people fall away???
Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data
In this very thread, I have posted NUMEROUS verses from Scripture that are IGNORED by Calvinists such as yourself. Let's be honest. Over and over, I have given you Scripture that you have not responded to or TRIED to explain away, such as my tagline, but not convincingly at all.
Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace.
When Scripture says this, it is presuming that one is WALKING IN THEIR FAITH. For what good is faith without love? Also, what is ignored over and over is that a believer today does not guarantee a believer next year. If you want to persevere, you must believe UNTIL THE END.
Can true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ
A true Christian can only be identified in the present, not the future. We are judged by our fruit NOW, not by speculating what we "should" provide ten years from now.
Regards