I'll spare you lunch, but you have countless times told me you are of the elect - THUS - you are irresistibly caused to do His Will. We both agree that the elect MUST do God's Will inevitably.
Barring some freak situation, a truly regenerated heart will be sanctified, necessarily.
yes, and how do you know if your heart is truly "regenerated" so that it will not fail to be elected? You have already told me that if you subsequently fell away, your knowledge of your "regeneration" must have been false!
Therefore, if a self-proclaimed saved person never experiences any sanctification, that would be an evidence that he was never saved.
That is why Catholics place the "salvation" event at the end, then we don't have to worry about such subterfuge and second-guessing and double talk. When Paul says we are saved as a result of our Baptism, he is speaking of our first step to eternal life - NOT that we have automatically received it. He is clear that we can fall away from this Baptismal saving.
Answer me this... If a Protestant of your brand does good deeds, is walking the walk, etc. and makes the claim to be of the elect - but then falls away, what happened to all of those good deeds? Who did them? HOW DID THIS PERSON DO GOOD? BY HIMSELF OR BY CHRIST? The problem with your view is that you discount all of the good that a man did - saying that Christ NEVER was within Him to begin with! But it is clear from Scripture that we can do nothing good WITHOUT GOD! So how did that fallen away person do good if He never had Christ to begin with? Oi. If you can answer that, you are on your way to explaining this "now you see it, now you don't" theology.
I wrote : The problem is that you seem to know you are going to heaven, regardless of what happens after your Sinner's Prayer. (despite our agreement that people fall away)
You wrote :That has never been my argument...
AHHH! [more hair flying around]. Oh boy...
You :He {Jesus} paid for the sins of His elect and forgave them their sins past, present, and future. When we ask God for forgiveness now for our sins, it is not to earn our way into heaven....Asking for forgiveness, after being saved, is an obedience to God, as He commands that we do so. It is for our own good, and when we obey Him we love Him. It is part of our sanctification
You: I know that we have different ideas of salvation, but when you say that a person's status can't be known until death, even if a hypothetical, then you are evading. [while you know your final status]
Me: So why does a Protestant KNOW he is saved after repeating it [sinner's prayer]?
You : You have been shown and given access to multiple assurance passages. Your leaders interpret them all out of existence, or assign new meanings to them contrary to plain meaning.
Me : Why doesn't God grant you full information? How do you explain that someone who calls himself the elect not know everything about God?
You : But God did grant me full information. That is, all the information I needed to come to Him. He made me an offer I couldn't refuse, so I experienced the "choice" of choosing Him. No one can ever know everything about God, but we can aspire to know everything that we need. That is available to the elect [you].
Perhaps I am getting the wrong message, but the above quotes from you in the last couple days are telling me that you think you are of the elect - today, tommorrow, next year, and forever. There are even more from earlier converstations. Your posts are full of such claims that you are of the elect! Why do you think I keep trying to tell you that people fall away???
Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data
In this very thread, I have posted NUMEROUS verses from Scripture that are IGNORED by Calvinists such as yourself. Let's be honest. Over and over, I have given you Scripture that you have not responded to or TRIED to explain away, such as my tagline, but not convincingly at all.
Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace.
When Scripture says this, it is presuming that one is WALKING IN THEIR FAITH. For what good is faith without love? Also, what is ignored over and over is that a believer today does not guarantee a believer next year. If you want to persevere, you must believe UNTIL THE END.
Can true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ
A true Christian can only be identified in the present, not the future. We are judged by our fruit NOW, not by speculating what we "should" provide ten years from now.
Regards
I am not always irresistibly caused to do His will. Even though I am saved, I still sin. God does not cause me to sin, therefore, I must choose to sin.
yes, and how do you know if your heart is truly "regenerated" so that it will not fail to be elected?
I have both God's promises and the evidence of my sanctification.
Answer me this... If a Protestant of your brand does good deeds, is walking the walk, etc. and makes the claim to be of the elect - but then falls away, what happened to all of those good deeds? Who did them? HOW DID THIS PERSON DO GOOD? BY HIMSELF OR BY CHRIST?
Such a person would be the same as one who never claimed to be saved in the first place. Lost people do what we would call good deeds. But of course, they are not "good" in God's eyes. So, in the case of either person (one who fell away, and one who never claimed salvation) the good deeds did not come from Christ.
The problem is that you seem to know you are going to heaven, regardless of what happens after your Sinner's Prayer. (despite our agreement that people fall away)
FK: "That has never been my argument...
AHHH! [more hair flying around]. Oh boy...
I stand by what I said. :) "Regardless" would include the people who permanently fall away, meaning they were never really saved. The person who says a true Sinner's Prayer has a regenerated heart and will do good by God. God promises that will happen, so that is why I have called it "future included events". This is why POTS is so superior to OSAS.
Your posts are full of such claims that you are of the elect! Why do you think I keep trying to tell you that people fall away???
Yes, I do make such claims. And, I agree with you that some "fall away". I'm sure some have even made arguments similar to my own now. That's OK. I do not have divine knowledge that I am of the elect. But, am I willing to bet my eternal destiny on it? Absolutely yes. That is the assurance I am talking about.
Over and over, I have given you Scripture that you have not responded to or TRIED to explain away, such as my tagline, but not convincingly at all.
I gave an answer for your tagline. Moses is speaking to other humans, and so it is in human terms. We humans do have the experience of choosing, even though God ordained the elect from before our existence and independently of His foreknowledge of our "choice". He causes the choice by instilling grace.
When Scripture says this, it is presuming that one is WALKING IN THEIR FAITH. For what good is faith without love?
Yes, it is presumed because of God's guarantee to His elect.