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To: jo kus; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
In each case, the presumption is made that an individual is ABLE to choose to do them or not. Thus, we have free will to choose or not choose to make God's Graces effective within us.

That "presumption" of yours is contraindicated over and over in Scripture.

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -- Romans 3:9-12

You continue to deny Scripture by asserting that man can "choose" to act righteously in any way unless and until God turns his dead heart into a grateful recipient of His grace.

This is solely God's call, determined by Him from before the foundation of the world.

Or else we make ourselves into mini-gods who seek to become the final arbiters of our salvation by our "agreeing" to be saved.

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -- 1 Corinthians 2:10-14

Fallen man will never "choose" the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and dead men cannot "choose" to live.

Like Lazarus, we must be born again, by His will alone.

Does God know if you will sit with Him in heaven? Or is this unknown to God?

2,591 posted on 02/13/2006 10:00:19 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Regarding Romans 3:9-12, I disagree with your interpretation. Paul is not saying that all men are unrighteous. That would disagree with the very Psalms that he is quoting from in Romans 3! There are numerous people listed as being righteous by the Scripture, such as Zechariah, Elizabeth, and Joseph. The OT is full of them, including David. Thus, Paul cannot mean that no one is righteous. To better understand Paul, you have to go to where he quotes from, understanding the context of the OT. He writes to people who are well formed in the OT and are familiar with its context. Thus, he doesn't just proof text like you do. He transfers the meaning of the OT into his NT explanations.

In Romans 3, Paul is merely continuing what he said in Romans 2 and will continue in Romans 4 - that the Jews are NOT righteous due to their fleshy birth. Men and women are righteous as a result of being spiritually circumcised, as per the last verses of Romans 2. He is writing against proud Jews who believed they are saved because of their circumcision. Yet, Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE his circumcision - and Paul quotes a litany of verses that show the wickedness of David's opponents - ALL JEWS! It would be perfectly clear, then, that the early reader of Romans would know what Paul is saying (presuming you are aware of what Paul is quoting).

You continue to deny Scripture by asserting that man can "choose" to act righteously in any way unless and until God turns his dead heart into a grateful recipient of His grace.

That is false. I am denying YOUR INTERPRETATION of Scripture, not Scripture itself, as I note above. Your interpetations are incorrect, and were not held by any reader of the Scriptures until Luther came along and twisted Scriptures to follow his own theology. YOUR interpretation is NOT Scipture, nor is it inspired. There is absolutely no point in posting the many verses of Scripture that tells that "men will be judged based on their works" or "that men have set before them two choices" (Deut 30:15-17) God doesn't command people to do things that they cannot do without His help.

Or else we make ourselves into mini-gods who seek to become the final arbiters of our salvation by our "agreeing" to be saved.

Catholics don't consider themselves of the elect merely because we are baptised. That sounds more like something a Protestant would proclaim: "I'm saved - no matter what happens from now on"...

Fallen man will never "choose" the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and dead men cannot "choose" to live.

Sure they can; if Christ abides in me, ALL things are possible. Christ enables me to love, to have faith, and to be justified in God's eyes. After Baptism, I am no longer "dead" in sin, but alive IN CHRIST. As to that initial faith to come to the Lord, that is God, certainly and entirely. But it doesn't follow that I will be saved for eternal heaven because I had become baptised or said a sinner's prayer in 1995 or whatever.

Like Lazarus, we must be born again, by His will alone.

Lazarus was born again? Where is that in Scriptures?

Does God know if you will sit with Him in heaven? Or is this unknown to God?

It's known to Him, of course, but not to me.

Regards

2,595 posted on 02/13/2006 10:50:56 AM PST by jo kus
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