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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Regarding Romans 3:9-12, I disagree with your interpretation. Paul is not saying that all men are unrighteous. That would disagree with the very Psalms that he is quoting from in Romans 3! There are numerous people listed as being righteous by the Scripture, such as Zechariah, Elizabeth, and Joseph. The OT is full of them, including David. Thus, Paul cannot mean that no one is righteous. To better understand Paul, you have to go to where he quotes from, understanding the context of the OT. He writes to people who are well formed in the OT and are familiar with its context. Thus, he doesn't just proof text like you do. He transfers the meaning of the OT into his NT explanations.

In Romans 3, Paul is merely continuing what he said in Romans 2 and will continue in Romans 4 - that the Jews are NOT righteous due to their fleshy birth. Men and women are righteous as a result of being spiritually circumcised, as per the last verses of Romans 2. He is writing against proud Jews who believed they are saved because of their circumcision. Yet, Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE his circumcision - and Paul quotes a litany of verses that show the wickedness of David's opponents - ALL JEWS! It would be perfectly clear, then, that the early reader of Romans would know what Paul is saying (presuming you are aware of what Paul is quoting).

You continue to deny Scripture by asserting that man can "choose" to act righteously in any way unless and until God turns his dead heart into a grateful recipient of His grace.

That is false. I am denying YOUR INTERPRETATION of Scripture, not Scripture itself, as I note above. Your interpetations are incorrect, and were not held by any reader of the Scriptures until Luther came along and twisted Scriptures to follow his own theology. YOUR interpretation is NOT Scipture, nor is it inspired. There is absolutely no point in posting the many verses of Scripture that tells that "men will be judged based on their works" or "that men have set before them two choices" (Deut 30:15-17) God doesn't command people to do things that they cannot do without His help.

Or else we make ourselves into mini-gods who seek to become the final arbiters of our salvation by our "agreeing" to be saved.

Catholics don't consider themselves of the elect merely because we are baptised. That sounds more like something a Protestant would proclaim: "I'm saved - no matter what happens from now on"...

Fallen man will never "choose" the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and dead men cannot "choose" to live.

Sure they can; if Christ abides in me, ALL things are possible. Christ enables me to love, to have faith, and to be justified in God's eyes. After Baptism, I am no longer "dead" in sin, but alive IN CHRIST. As to that initial faith to come to the Lord, that is God, certainly and entirely. But it doesn't follow that I will be saved for eternal heaven because I had become baptised or said a sinner's prayer in 1995 or whatever.

Like Lazarus, we must be born again, by His will alone.

Lazarus was born again? Where is that in Scriptures?

Does God know if you will sit with Him in heaven? Or is this unknown to God?

It's known to Him, of course, but not to me.

Regards

2,595 posted on 02/13/2006 10:50:56 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
Paul is not saying that all men are unrighteous. That would disagree with the very Psalms that he is quoting from in Romans 3!

You mean these verses from Psalms?

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -- Psalm 14:1-3

Or these verses from Psalms?

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -- Psalm 53:1-3

The righteousness of Zechariah, Elizabeth, Joseph, David, you, me, Paul, anyone, it is all the same righteousness -- the imputed righteousness of Christ upon our sinning hearts.

Or else you claim it for yourself. "Ye shall be as gods."

Lazarus was born again? Where is that in Scriptures?

Now I understand our miscommunication. You must think Lazarus was just sleeping and not four days putrified until Christ caused him to live again. Christ went so far as to say He was "glad" He had waited so long to visit Lazarus that he had died in order to prove to His disciples that He was their only salvation.

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him." -- John 11:14-15

Baptism and the sinner's prayer have nothing to do with God predestining salvation on whomever He chooses, ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world.

It (our salvation) is known to Him, of course...

Of course? Then how can you change it?

ELECTION DEFINED

"The Canons of Dort state: "Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He hath, out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault, from their primitive state of rectitude, into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect, and foundation of salvation."

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" -- 2 Timothy 1:9

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:4-5

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day." -- Romans 11:5-8

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." -- Ephesians 1:5-12


2,599 posted on 02/13/2006 12:38:21 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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