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To: Forest Keeper
it seems that the only way for Catholicism to work is to throw out the plain meaning of the verse.

To read the scripture one must inderstand the context, that is all. In fact, it often amazes me how complex doctrines of the Church are confronted by the Protestants with single-phrase quotes, -- quotes that come invariably from a lengthy explanation of some other dictrine of the Church. And as invariably the Protestant prooftext collapses once the quote is seen in context. But then, of course, we face this "plain meaning" accusation. The plain meaning comes from the context, does it not? Did I not give and explain the context?

Let us examine Romans 5 now. The same prooftexting rigmarole repeats here. The topic is the connection between sin and death, on one hand and Christ and eternal life on the other. It concludes in verse 21 thus

That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The plain meaning here is not that all sin, but that through Christ all are free from sin. Which, of course, includes Virgin Mary, sanctified at her immaculate conception. Romans 5:12 does not contradict her sinlessness at all.

You are familiar with the legal language in which contracts and product manuals are written. There are overloaded with clauses, caveats, subclauses and footnotes in order to escape some or another prooftext that would incriminate the partner of the contract. So we read that lawn mowers are not to be used to do haircuts, that the back side of a ladder should not be used as the front side, that frying pans are harmful if swallowed, etc. I suppose St. Paul could have written Romans in a similar way:

all Greeks and Jews, prior to they conversion by Christ have sinned; where Jews are to be understood for the purposes of this discussion as either natural Jews or converts, as well as members of the household of thus defined Jew, as per the Law of Moses and matrilinearly, while Greeks are to be understood expansively as any citizens or residents of the Roman Empire, or members of their household inasmuch as they keep pagan worship; none in this group or groups shall apply to children before age of reason or the mentally ill, or Virgin Mary at all time of her life. The members of the above group or groups need the glory of God.

2,310 posted on 02/05/2006 7:44:40 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
Let us examine Romans 5 now. The same prooftexting rigmarole repeats here. The topic is the connection between sin and death, on one hand and Christ and eternal life on the other. It concludes in verse 21 thus:

That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The plain meaning here is not that all sin, but that through Christ all are free from sin. Which, of course, includes Virgin Mary, sanctified at her immaculate conception. Romans 5:12 does not contradict her sinlessness at all.

While I would agree that 5:12-21 is one argument, I don't agree that you can apply the same meaning to all verses. You interpret the last sentence and then say that wipes out all the other verses. Remember what 5:12 says:

Rom. 5:12 : "12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—"

Paul is also explaining how sin came into the world through one man, and that it will be taken out through one man. Death came to all men, all sinned. So, you are forced to say that "death came to all men" really means "death came to all men except Mary", and "all sinned" really means "all sinned except for Mary". You know there is zero Biblical support for a sinless Mary, so you have to take these verses and stretch them beyond all recognition to justify your belief. In fact, the only way to say that Mary was sinless is to equate her with God.

2,448 posted on 02/09/2006 10:36:30 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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