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To: annalex
Let us examine Romans 5 now. The same prooftexting rigmarole repeats here. The topic is the connection between sin and death, on one hand and Christ and eternal life on the other. It concludes in verse 21 thus:

That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The plain meaning here is not that all sin, but that through Christ all are free from sin. Which, of course, includes Virgin Mary, sanctified at her immaculate conception. Romans 5:12 does not contradict her sinlessness at all.

While I would agree that 5:12-21 is one argument, I don't agree that you can apply the same meaning to all verses. You interpret the last sentence and then say that wipes out all the other verses. Remember what 5:12 says:

Rom. 5:12 : "12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—"

Paul is also explaining how sin came into the world through one man, and that it will be taken out through one man. Death came to all men, all sinned. So, you are forced to say that "death came to all men" really means "death came to all men except Mary", and "all sinned" really means "all sinned except for Mary". You know there is zero Biblical support for a sinless Mary, so you have to take these verses and stretch them beyond all recognition to justify your belief. In fact, the only way to say that Mary was sinless is to equate her with God.

2,448 posted on 02/09/2006 10:36:30 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Let us look at verses 18-19:
18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. 19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.
Verse 18 says, all condemned and all justified. Verse 19 says, many are sinners, and many are justified. Unless "all" is used in the sense of "many" in Verse 18, St. Paul contradicts himself in these two verses. But verse 18 picks up from verse 12. I do not see how verse 12 should be read as "absolutely all", when verse 18 must be read as "many".

Is Paul saying in verse 12 that since all, including Mary, die, then all, including Mary and John the Baptist, sin? Verse 14 explains that not all sinned in a similar way. Paul makes clear that death came from one man, Adam. The implication is that the sin of Adam alone is sufficient to cause death of all. It is not logically necessary for all to sin in order for all to die.

2,451 posted on 02/09/2006 1:30:05 PM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper
there is zero Biblical support for a sinless Mary

I neglected to respond to that. Yes, not only is sinlessness of Mary not contradicted by any verses you brought up, as I have shown, but also there is a positive statement indicating her sinlessness even prior to the Annunciation, and that is Luke 1:28. The original Greek has her described by the angel as "kecharitomene", word unique in the New testament, indicating fullness of grace in the past tense. Now, where grace abounds, sin cannot abide.

2,478 posted on 02/10/2006 9:53:18 AM PST by annalex
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