Yes, that sounds fair enough to me. I don't know the subtleties of who gets the credit for salvation. I always think that "Christ saves". So whether it is the Holy Spirit or Christ or the Father or all, I believe I know where you are coming from and agree.
I also notice that you use the words "process of sanctification" seemingly as an equivalent with "salvation".
If I have given you that impression, then I have been in error, and I apologize. I believe that the process of sanctification is very distinct from salvation. I see the truth of salvation as a single moment in time, from our point of view, with future included events (works). I believe sanctification only begins after salvation is accomplished. Sanctification, in part, teaches us how to love God, and appreciate His love for us more. Sanctification is a lifelong process (after salvation) and brings us closer to God. Salvation, according to me, is what gets us into heaven.
My curiosity forces me to ask how I suggested that salvation and sanctification are the same thing (even if I regret it)? :) I just want to know if I'm not framing my positions correctly.
[From +Symeon the New Theologian: ] When this is completed (that is, purification of heart and acquisition of grace have attained their fullness and perfection), through grace a man becomes wholly a god."
I am laughing at myself for the instinctive reaction this saying gives me. You have to know how something like this must sound to the average listener. However, since I (stroking chin) have read from you and Kosta, I know better how to interpret a statement like this. :)
[+Thalassios taught:] ..."But once the battle is over and it [the intellect] is found worthy of spiritual gifts, then it becomes wholly luminous, powerfully energized by grace and rooted in the contemplation of spiritual realities. A person in whom this happens is not attached to the things of this world but has passed from death to life."
Does this mean that spiritual gifts are not bestowed until after physical death? (Maybe I am misinterpreting "battle is over"?) Regarding the last sentence, does this mean that man is spiritually dead until theosis? If so, then most people spend their entire lives spiritually dead?
[+Gregory Palamas :] "Through this life it [the soul] makes the body conjoined to it immortal, so that in due time the body attains the promised resurrection and participates in eternal glory."
Sorry for coming up with such a weird question here, but does this mean that a soul doomed to hell will be without body? (From the context, I'm assuming that a lost soul will not make the body immortal.) In that case, how can there be "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?
The next verse, from John, is interpreted to mean that while no one can "snatch" us from the hand of God, we can "fall" out of it. As +John Chrysostomos writes in Homily VI on Phillipians:
"As long as we are in the hand of God, “no one is able to pluck us out” (John x. 28.), for that hand is strong; but when we fall away from that hand and that help, then are we lost,...
This is another good point that I haven't been able to understand. Isn't it clear in this passage that we are stronger than the hand of God? God's hand is strong, but not strong enough to overcome our desires? To me, interpreting "no one" into "no one except me" renders the whole verse useless. It completely negates the point of the verse. This is a perfect example of my "protestation". Why should I trust another fallible man to throw out what this verse is actually saying?
The final quote from Romans is repeated time and again by the Fathers for two purposes. One is to demonstrate how God's love falls on all, the good and the evil equally...
I know it sounds very harsh from me when I say that I don't think God loves us all equally. I suppose I am making a sovereignty argument along the lines of:
Is. 29:16 : "16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?"
I know both that God IS love and that God's ways are not our ways. With my own children, if I see that one of them is about to make a bad decision, I will sometimes allow it because I believe that experience will be beneficial. I certainly learned many things "the hard way"! :) I believe God does this with us. If, however, my child's bad decision involved any kind of physical danger, then of course I would step in. What you seem to be saying is that God will not do that for us. God loves us all equally and He will just let some of us walk right off a cliff in His plain sight, and under His power to prevent. I struggle with this nature of love.
Tell me, what do you believe happens after the death of the body? BTW, sorry for being so long winded.
I, Forest Keeper, master of brevity, King of the concise, and prince of the succinct, hereby forgive you, Kolo, for being long winded. :))
As for the body after death, I must admit I've never given it a tremendous amount of thought. I suppose I would just go with :
2 Cor. 5:6-8 " 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
So, after death, (for those who are saved) the spirit immediately goes into the presence of God. Once Christ returns, they will be reunited with their new and perfect bodies to spend a time on earth under Jesus' rule, and then we will all be taken into heaven permanently.
Imagine a Protestant and an Orthodox shipwrecked in the middle of the ocean with nothing around them but water as far as they can see, helplessly floating on choppy waters. I think it is reasonable that the moment of truth should come to both right there and then -- that they are lost and will perish, unless nothing short of a miracle rescues them.
Then, suddenly, against all hope or probability, you see a ship on the horizon. The Protestant would scream "Praise the Lord! We are saved! " The Orhodox would say "Glory to God in the highest! Let's try to swim as hard as we can to get as close as possible to the ship so that we can be spotted, and then saved." In other words, you are not saved until you are plucked out of that ocean.
The sight of the ship is not being saved, but a reasonable hope that you might be saved. And, while nothing you did brought the ship your way, you can do a lot to make your salvation a greater certainty by deliberately moving closer to the ship and cooperating with its crew.
Having been a parachute jumper at one time in my life, I always remember people saying "why would anyone jump out of a perfeclty safe airplane?" To which I would say (in my Orthodox mindset) "It's not a perfectly safe airplane until it lands safely."
So, you are saved from death first and then purified? That's a new one! I think your logic is reversed.
This is like being on a job one day and saying "I got my retirement." No Sir, you've got to show something and work to get there!
But it is becoming clear to me why you think the way you think. The biblical tense of a word "saved" is one of future, of something that has not occurred yet, and not of an accomplished act. Yet the English term in most English-language bibles is one of something that has already been accomplished!
This is only one small example of how just reading the Bible "cold" can lead to misconceptions and error, and how dangerous it is to assume that what you read in English is the same as it was in the original. Your whole theology, which begins rather than ends with salvation, is founded on a term interpreted in a wrong tense.
Well, it's not only harsh, but it's nothing what Jesus taught. God does not hate His creation.
I know both that God IS love
Yes, and that is His essence, His nature, and not His characteristic. So, then, can Love hate? Can absolute and pure Love find room for evil? Can pure Love return evil with evil? No! Because God is unchanging. So love is then always love.
I know, the Bible babblers will quote a passage where it says that God hated. Again, reading the Bible "cold" (literally) is just that. It leads to error. There are numerous sites one can find that show biblical "errors" and "contradictions" which one can "prove" by reading the Bible "cold." It's for simple minds.
At the Final Judgment, all bodies are resurrected and re-united with their souls, for life-everlasting. The doomed will live forever too, but separated from God.
God's hand is strong, but not strong enough to overcome our desires
You Protestants are so Pharisaical! Your arguments are like those of the High Priest on Golgotha telling Christ "If You are the Son of God, step down from that Cross and we shall believe in you." Or words to the effect "What kind of a God is He if He can't smite these Romans who are flogging Him?"
It's a humanistic vision of God, made in our image, FK.
"If I have given you that impression, then I have been in error, and I apologize. I believe that the process of sanctification is very distinct from salvation. I see the truth of salvation as a single moment in time, from our point of view, with future included events (works). I believe sanctification only begins after salvation is accomplished. Sanctification, in part, teaches us how to love God, and appreciate His love for us more. Sanctification is a lifelong process (after salvation) and brings us closer to God. Salvation, according to me, is what gets us into heaven."
I didn't understand what you were saying. For us Orthodox its quite the other way around. What you call salvation we might say is the first time the Holy Spirit takes up in our souls.
"Does this mean that spiritual gifts are not bestowed until after physical death? (Maybe I am misinterpreting "battle is over"?) Regarding the last sentence, does this mean that man is spiritually dead until theosis? If so, then most people spend their entire lives spiritually dead?"
No, but the state that +Thalassios is speaking of is way up near the top of the Ladder. The death to life comment is a comparison of this life and True Life. Compared to True Life in Christ, our life is like a state of death.
"[+Gregory Palamas :] "Through this life it [the soul] makes the body conjoined to it immortal, so that in due time the body attains the promised resurrection and participates in eternal glory."
Sorry for coming up with such a weird question here, but does this mean that a soul doomed to hell will be without body? (From the context, I'm assuming that a lost soul will not make the body immortal.) In that case, how can there be "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?"
Kosta answered this one as well as I could.
""As long as we are in the hand of God, “no one is able to pluck us out” (John x. 28.), for that hand is strong; but when we fall away from that hand and that help, then are we lost,...
This is another good point that I haven't been able to understand. Isn't it clear in this passage that we are stronger than the hand of God? God's hand is strong, but not strong enough to overcome our desires? To me, interpreting "no one" into "no one except me" renders the whole verse useless. It completely negates the point of the verse."
Why do you think this negates the scripture verse? Is it because you believe that once you have gained salvation the struggle is over? From an Orthodox pov the struggle usually continues through life and since it is we who cut ourselves off from God, not other people, what +John Chrysostomos says seems self-evident.