My intent was your sense of those scriptures. I do not claim to be a defender of everything Luther ever said or held, I am by no means qualified to do so even if I wanted. I am a firm believer in "the old has gone, the new has come". Christ "covers" us by removing the old nature and covering the remnant of sin. He is our advocate at judgment and also "covers" us.
I responded to that idea 1000 posts ago...Love doesn't automatically flow from faith. Otherwise, why does Paul say in 1 Cor 13:2 that even the greatest of faith, to move mountains, is nothing without love? If such a great faith has NOT love, then it is quiet logical to say that Paul did NOT consider love as an automatic outpouring.
Then I ask for 1000 pardons for my short term memory. The whole issue here is what is meant by "faith". The love Paul is talking about here is clearly agape love, and he is separating this love from faith for the example. He is saying that if you have faith without love, then your faith isn't genuine (Godly). Paul believes that true faith has love in it. How can our "faith" lead us to Christ without love? Paul knows this and so his teaching is that a cerebral belief is not enough. Love does automatically flow from true faith because it is already there.
And secondly, WHY is good works even necessary in the Protestant scheme, as I understand you to say? WHAT IS becoming sanctified? Are you becoming sanctified, being made holy? If so, then what is going on with imputed righteousness above? Seems like you are saying two different things. Sanctification makes us holy, but if we are covered, a once-saved Christian shouldn't really care - since no matter how "sanctified" he becomes, he still has already achieved heaven.
Good works are a fruit of salvation and an obedience to God, like baptism. ... Becoming sanctified is a life-long, post-salvation process of maturing in faith and becoming more like Christ. ... Yes, I am becoming sanctified and being made more holy. ... I do not know what is going on with your "imputed righteousness". You made it up. ... God saves sinners, not holy people. Therefore, we need sanctification. Again, good works pleasing to God are a fruit of salvation.
So where does sanctification fit into all this? Why do you need "evidence" of your salvation IF you are assuredly of the elect??? Seems a contradiction, or at least a false hope, doesn't it?
I do not know what you mean by "need" or "evidence". ...I have no false hope, it is all in Christ.
And what happens to a person who is disobedient to God's commands? From what you seem to be saying, sanctification doesn't fit into the heavenly equation whatsoever. It appears to be something given to make our lives better here on earth ONLY. Yes?
No. A regenerated heart loves God. One who loves God obeys Him. Sanctification teaches HOW to do that. Sanctification fits perfectly into the heavenly equation.
Me: In an understandable sense, being "imputed" righteousness does not make one righteous in FACT, but it does make one righteous in God's eyes and judgment.
You can't possibly mean that! We aren't righteous in fact but we are in God's eyes? Is God like Isaac, whom Rebekah covered up Jacob with a skin to hide who Jacob really was? Is this the Protestant idea of God? NOTHING unclean will enter heaven! NOTHING. Brother, we must become righteous, more so than the scribes and Pharisees, said God Himself. With God, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
I was trying to interpret your made up term. ... For Protestants, the Kingdom of Heaven is not like Rebekah covering up Jacob in a lie. ... My point was that our righteousness in God's eyes is not from ourselves, we don't earn it or do good works for it. When you said "impute", I thought of "gift". That's what I think our salvation is, an unmerited gift.
Your last statement wrapped up your post perfectly.
Fair enough, but again, if Christ ONLY covers us, it means that we still are unrighteous, dirty, wretched humans. Covering something is not the same thing as removing sin from us, is it? Thus, rid yourself of that Lutheran error. Because of Christ, we are MADE righteous in God's eyes - not because of anything we do, but by the grace of God. We will not be covered but dirty humans entering into heaven!
He is saying that if you have faith without love, then your faith isn't genuine (Godly). Paul believes that true faith has love in it. How can our "faith" lead us to Christ without love? Paul knows this and so his teaching is that a cerebral belief is not enough. Love does automatically flow from true faith because it is already there.
The point I am making that having faith alone does not save. It must be faith with love. Faith alone has no love. This was Luther's mistake, again. If you include love within your definition of faith, I think we'd agree that - however, I would say that love is not "generated" by faith, but by Christ within us. EVERYTHING is a gift from God. Thus, our faith and our love during a specific action (say, giving a glass of water to someone) is from God. The faith is necessary before the love can come forth. But both come from God.
I do not know what is going on with your "imputed righteousness". You made it up. ...
Imputed rightousness means that Christ's own righteousness is used to cover our own depraved selves. You have stated this on several occasions! Let's take the logic to its awful conclusion, shall we? IF Christ covers us up - no matter how bad we are (or good), what is the point of trying to become more holy? If we have a ticket for a nice new coat when we enter heaven (sinner's prayer, correct?), then why IS sanctification important? Tell me WHY it matters if I am a little dirty or very dirty UNDER that coat that allows me entrance into heaven???
I do not know what you mean by "need" or "evidence". ...I have no false hope, it is all in Christ
You have said that works are merely a fruit, evidence of salvation. Why do you need this evidence, when you already "know" you are saved by your sinner's prayer? What is the purpose of having fruit to prove your salvation?
A regenerated heart loves God. One who loves God obeys Him. Sanctification teaches HOW to do that. Sanctification fits perfectly into the heavenly equation.
I sense a contradiction in what is being said, or I am misunderstanding you. You believe you are of the elect, that you cannot fall, that your name cannot be blotted out. This is due to your sinner's prayer, as further evidenced by the fruits of salvation, your good works. Correct me if I am wrong so far. Now. IF Christ covers me because of the above, I am the elect, how does sanctification fit into the heavenly equation? Furthermore, what about those who DO NOT obey God, even though they have made the sinner's prayer? Does this say that the sinner's prayer does not infallibly tell us that we are saved? Ugh...
My point was that our righteousness in God's eyes is not from ourselves, we don't earn it or do good works for it. When you said "impute", I thought of "gift". That's what I think our salvation is, an unmerited gift.
We both agree that salvation is an unmerited gift. Nothing I do alone can earn it. Let's work from there. You believe that you are IMPUTED righteousness. This is a legal definition - you are CALLED righteous, although you are not. Under the covering of Christ, you still remain the same sinful depraved human being. Versus this is INFUSED righteousness. Here, Catholics (and I believe Methodists and such, to a degree) believe that God actually CHANGES US! We begin the sanctification process, thus, the need for it. We slowly become more "like" Christ by becoming more holy - none of which is from ourselves. GOD is changing us into a new creation. Thus, it is not just a legal fiction. We ARE becoming more holy - which is a necessity to enter heaven. By the faith and love infused within us by the Spirit, we become pleasing in God's eyes, preparing us to share eternal life with Him in heaven.
Regards