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To: HarleyD
I remember once making such a statement by accident and being pounded for it from both sides. It was a 150+ posts before everyone settled down.

Terrible! Well, you forgot part of my quote, which would explain my point of view better. Here it is again:

I would say that God predisposes people whom He wills to choose Him - and since He sees all time as one present NOW, He is aware of what will be necessary on our part to react to His promptings. Again, you keep forgeting about how God and time interact. God has access to the past, present and future simultaneously, not in a linear way like us. Thus, His interactions are done at the same "Now" that we make our decisions.

Perhaps I can give an example...Let's say God expects 1 erg of "neutral" response from men for a good work to be achieved in the will (since man himself cannot will positively good without God). But first, to achieve that 1 erg, that man must FIRST have been given 1 joule of grace from God. Perhaps God gives more than 1 joule, but to each person, He gives at least this 1 joule. Now, whether the man produces that 1 erg or not depends on his will to REFUSE to do it (not his will to DO it). The 1 joule WILL accomplish the 1 erg UNLESS the man refuses to allow it. The 1 joule, we will call "sufficient grace". It is given to EVERYONE. IF the man does NOT refuse to allow the erg to be produced (it is ONLY God's joule that produces the erg. Man only cooperates by not destroying the joule.), then we will call this positive movement of man's will "efficacious grace". Note, God gave the same 1 joule to both men, but one refused to allow the erg to be generated, while the other, who contributed nothing, DID NOT refuse God's grace.

To further confuse this all, God knows what we will do - but God is not held accountable, because He has given what was necessary to produce the 1 erg. Thus, the man is given the ability to choose good or evil (which the Scriptures state) AND God foreknows and guides our works.

The reason my Calvinists brethren rightfully distance themselves from me is that predestination states that all men are equally corrupt. Our hearts and spirit must be changed. Predisposition suggests this isn't the case.

The Church teaches predestination, but not like the Calvinists. We don't believe in double predestination. Like my example above, God predisposes the GOOD we do. HE does it. We merely are neutral (rather than negative) during a given action. Where Calvin left 1500 years of Christianity was when he said that God ALSO predestined and caused man's EVIL actions! No way, Jose. God does NOT make people do evil - although one could read some of the OT (without the Church's interpretation) in that manner. Further revelation has told us that God does NOT cause evil, He merely allows it. How? Again, God's grace, the 1 joule comes to us. We say "no", rather than "I don't know". The "no" makes US responsible, not God. The "I don't know" makes God the creator of our good works.

Thus, God is responsible for our good works, we are responsible for our evil works. God predestines people to heaven, while allowing people to reprobate themselves.

God is partial to certain individuals which is false.

This Scripture doesn't mean that God has the same plan for all men during the "creation" of His plan, it merely means that men will all be judged using the same criteria, whether Greek or Jew. "Did you love"? "Did you obey what was revealed to you"? God does not "respect" a man because the man was a Jew. But He is certainly free to design the "clay pot" to lead the Jews out of Egypt (Moses).

I don't see how you can say Jeremiah free chose God. Seems to me it was a done deal.

Scripture ALSO points to Jeremiah agonizing over this very issue. Yes, God has predestined Jeremiah, but His knowledge does not force Jeremiah's decision. God knows that Jeremiah will say "yes". Thus, the Scriptures can say that God formed Jeremiah in the womb to do His will - He sees simultaneously that Jeremiah WILL follow His will based on the gifts of grace He "will" give Him. Here's where I lost you last time. Recall that Jeremiah is born in time, but God sees Jeremiah's entire life, the before, during, and after of Jeremiah's decision, as one view. Thus, God's plan is "flexible" to the infinite degree. We can say it is made on the fly - but it is not, because God already sees it made on the fly BEFORE the decision.

AAHHH! I told you it was a mystery...

We are totally responsible for our action

That is only possible IF we CAN say "no" or "I don't know" to God's graces. Otherwise, if God moves us irrestibly in either direction, we no longer have a will. It becomes God's will within us in each case, to sin or not.

God withheld His grace from Pharaoh and Pharaoh just kept digging in deeper and deeper

A lot of interpretators have wrestled with this verse and what it implies. But I believe my explanation takes it into account, because God SIMULTANEOUSLY sees Pharoah's response of "no" with Pharoah's continued response to God's further graces. Pharoah will not change - and God sees that simultaneously - thus, the sufficient graces stop. They never become efficacious because Pharoah will always say "no", in God's eternal NOW.

God could have chosen to pour out His grace on Pharaoh. He didn't and that's His business as to why He didn't.

Yes, here is where we come to mystery. Why doesn't God give Pharoah 10 joules rather than 1 joule. Again, God has given sufficient grace. God is not a respecter of men, so WHY should the Pharoah get MORE grace than the ordinary man? And secondly, God chose to show His glory through the proud "no" of the Pharoah. God did not interfere with the Pharoah by "forcing" him to comply. God gives us what we want - and that was what the Pharoah wanted...

If we walk by the Spirit and do the things pleasing to God then He promise to bless us

True. I will take it for granted that you mean that God moves within us the will and desire to be pleasing to God. "He who made you without your own self will not justify you without yourself" AND (paraphrase) "God merely crowns His own gifts when He crowns us" (Augustine)

If we grieve or quench the Spirit and are not doing the things pleasing to God, this is sin.

I believe my above explanations would agree with you.

Regards

1,951 posted on 01/24/2006 12:14:20 PM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
Ooooooo doggy...what dazzling logic. My head is spinning. Wouldn't it be much simplier to admit the Lord ordains our steps? :O)

I really didn't forget your quote. Man cannot make even 1 erg of a response to God. We're dead. It's like asking a corpse if they want to get out of the casket. To complete your logic that God gives 1 erg of grace in neutral to everyone would mean that God revives everyone spiritually. IOW, everyone is born again. This isn't what our Lord Jesus indicated to Nicodemus. He said that "You must be born again." Obviously from the exchange that transpired not everyone is born again. This is confirmed by the scripture that not everyone has faith which also undermines your theory. (2 Thes 3:2)

The Church teaches predestination, but not like the Calvinists. We don't believe in double predestination.

Few people do. It's the "free will" syndrome. But it denies that God ordains man's steps and God's sovereignty. The Church and many Protestant churches can't explain predestination so they ignore it. However, they say that the Reformed view, the ONLY one who can explain predestination, is wrong simply because they don't like the answer they're hearing. What puzzles me is if people can't explain predestination, how do they know the Reformed view is wrong?

John MacArthur was fired from the BBN for talking about election. Augustine understood it and constructed the model prayer that, in my opinion, captures the nature of God, "Command what you will and give what you command." He got hounded by Pelagius about the issue. For a brief moment it looked victorious. Sadly the Church rejected Augustine's treatise on predestination. Protestants reject the Reformed election because it isn't popular. There isn't much difference from Protestantism and Catholicism. But in the end this "free will" is nothing more than making God into man's image.

Man is always responsible for the evil that each of us does. We are without excuse and all of us deserve hell. God doesn't send anyone there simply because we already belong there. He is rich in His mercy that He saves some of us from this fate. That is what God's grace is about. The question I can't answer is why God doesn't rescue everyone.

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1,960 posted on 01/24/2006 5:09:32 PM PST by HarleyD (Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? - Pro 20:24)
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