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To: jo kus
Ooooooo doggy...what dazzling logic. My head is spinning. Wouldn't it be much simplier to admit the Lord ordains our steps? :O)

I really didn't forget your quote. Man cannot make even 1 erg of a response to God. We're dead. It's like asking a corpse if they want to get out of the casket. To complete your logic that God gives 1 erg of grace in neutral to everyone would mean that God revives everyone spiritually. IOW, everyone is born again. This isn't what our Lord Jesus indicated to Nicodemus. He said that "You must be born again." Obviously from the exchange that transpired not everyone is born again. This is confirmed by the scripture that not everyone has faith which also undermines your theory. (2 Thes 3:2)

The Church teaches predestination, but not like the Calvinists. We don't believe in double predestination.

Few people do. It's the "free will" syndrome. But it denies that God ordains man's steps and God's sovereignty. The Church and many Protestant churches can't explain predestination so they ignore it. However, they say that the Reformed view, the ONLY one who can explain predestination, is wrong simply because they don't like the answer they're hearing. What puzzles me is if people can't explain predestination, how do they know the Reformed view is wrong?

John MacArthur was fired from the BBN for talking about election. Augustine understood it and constructed the model prayer that, in my opinion, captures the nature of God, "Command what you will and give what you command." He got hounded by Pelagius about the issue. For a brief moment it looked victorious. Sadly the Church rejected Augustine's treatise on predestination. Protestants reject the Reformed election because it isn't popular. There isn't much difference from Protestantism and Catholicism. But in the end this "free will" is nothing more than making God into man's image.

Man is always responsible for the evil that each of us does. We are without excuse and all of us deserve hell. God doesn't send anyone there simply because we already belong there. He is rich in His mercy that He saves some of us from this fate. That is what God's grace is about. The question I can't answer is why God doesn't rescue everyone.

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1,960 posted on 01/24/2006 5:09:32 PM PST by HarleyD (Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? - Pro 20:24)
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To: HarleyD
Ooooooo doggy...what dazzling logic. My head is spinning. Wouldn't it be much simplier to admit the Lord ordains our steps? :O)

Perhaps. But before I continue, I would like to make a clarification. I've been reading some of the early Christians' writings on this subject, and it seems my most recent post might be taken to have strayed into Semi-Pelagianism. Specifically, my example regarding the joule necessary to move man to act. It could be taken that I meant that God gives each man equal graces - this is not true. That is precisely the error that Prosper, Augustine's disciple, taught vs. Cassian (who believed that God gives each man equal graces - and the men respond accordingly - this is a derivative of Semi-Pelagianism, according to Prosper). So I would like to clarify that first.

I think we can agree that God moves us to do every good deed. We cannot do anything alone. St. Augustine was clear on this by refering to John 15 and the vine "you can do NOTHING (not a little) without Me". Thus, our preparation to receive Christ, (antecedant grace) and the grace required to move us (consequent grace) are needed for us to do anything. And God somehow ordains the proper amount of grace to ensure that His will is done. This is predestination, which the Church teaches. Where we disagree, I beleive, is when you seem to imply that God also ordains man's evil actions, as well. God predestines the elect, not the reprobate.

The question I can't answer is why God doesn't rescue everyone.

Here is the mystery from before. Somehow, we interact with God's good graces and He foresees our interaction, which determines future graces...All we can say is that God has died for the sin of all men, but all men will not take advantage of this salvation. The Church blames the reprobate, not God.

Perhaps a reading of the "Indiculus" (Prosper of Aquitaine) would be helpful. This document is a summary of the doctrine of grace and was accepted as the standard exposition of the Church's doctrine of grace and gradually acquired great authority, due to the tacit approval of the universal Church.

To close, I would like to add the conclusions by Bishop Caesarius of Arles, who convened the Council of Orange (2) {c.529 AD). "Teaching of Tradition on predestination: According to the Catholic Faith, we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all the baptised, if they are willing to labour faithfully, can and ought to accomplish with Christ's help and cooperation what pertains to the salvation of their souls. Not only do we not believe that some are predestined to evil by the divine power, but if there are any who wish to believe such an enormity, we with great abhorrence anathematise them (hear that, Calvin?). We also believe and profess for our salvation that in every good work it is not we who begin and afterwards are helped by God's mercy, but He Himself who, without any previous merit on our part, first instils in us faith in Him and love for Him, so that we may faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism and, after baptism, we may with His help accomplish what is pleasing to Him. Therefore we must clearly believe that the wonderful faith of the thief whom the Lord called to His home in paradise (Lk 23:43), of Cornelius the centurion to whom an angel of the Lord was sent (Acts 10:3) and Zacchaeus who merited to receive the Lord Himself (Lk 19:6) did not come from nature but was a gift from the bounty of divine grace".

Regards

1,980 posted on 01/25/2006 4:33:14 AM PST by jo kus
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