Could you show me the scripture where Jesus promises giving grace from sacraments?
God tends to work through the visible realm when He grants graces to men (and women). First, a sacrament is a visible sign of God's invisible graces. A sacrament is God's action made visible. With that broad definition in mind, we can point to MANY things DAILY that make God's grace visible: your children and husband. your work. the people whom you meet. the events in your life. ALL are means of God's grace reaching out to us. The Scriptures, esp. the OT, clearly show that God works through men (and women) to bring His salvation to people: Moses, Abraham, Judith, Ruth, Samuel, David, and so forth. This is the way God works and continues to work - He wants us to "see" His activity in our lives! Isn't it so much easier to love God when we "see" Him really blessing us, rather than some abstract concept? It is instrumental to understanding Catholicism - this concept of sacramentalism (that God works through the visible to bless us). When I teach religion, THIS concept is (along with the incarnation) the heart of Catholicism, one I ensure everyone understands.
I first wanted to make the above statement, as it will help you understand how we believe that God works in a special way through the Church sacraments. For example, God's forgiveness and mercy is SEEN through the sacrament of Baptism. The outward sign, the washing with water, signifies the real cleansing of the soul taking place:
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish" Eph 5:25-27
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:20-21
So you think an unsaved unbeliever that curses Christ might have a gift of the INDWELLING Holy Spirit?
No. Not all Muslims curse Christ. A person can be a Muslim and not actively "hate" Christ, just as a Protestant can be a Christian and not believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. And secondly, God does not judge us based on what we don't know. How much does a Muslim in the middle of Iraq know about Jesus Christ? He has been given only one side of the story.
I believe that there are rewards for those that are obedient and wise in the use of the gifts of Holy Spirit and the work ordained by God for us. Of special import to me is that we see it as a work of God and not OUR work
A note here is in order. I have taken great pains to tell you that we COOPERATE with God. I have over and over said that we do NOTHING ALONE. I want to make it clear one final time that Catholics do NOT believe we do anything of our own. We believe that God works within us to do anything of value. But because it is a amalgamation (Christ and I), I can say it is "my" work, understanding that it is not mine ALONE. Rest assured, we naturally understand that nothing of our own, alone, is worthy of salvation.
I think there could be some self deception if we use that as the primary marker. (remember the deceptive heart ?)
I totally agree, which is why Catholics say we cannot KNOW for absolute certain, that we will go to heaven when we die. We can be "pretty sure", based on our examination of our actions (moved by God, of course), but we can never be certain. We run the race until the end.
The question is truth, did the little girl REALLY make the cookies? If your work really could not be done without God why would you desire to claim autonomy in that act?
You are reading into the story what is not there. The girl never said "I made the cookies by MYSELF". We don't claim any autonomy from God in our actions of love. That is important to understand. Unless someone actually says, "I did it WITHOUT God", we cannot assume that someone is EXCLUDING God from the action. The point of the story is to say that God SHARES His glory with man. So your quote from Isaiah 42 also misses the point. No, God does not GIVE His glory up to men, but as a Lover, He shares it. Being married, you should be familiar with the concept of love = sharing of SELF. Since marriage is a sign of what God does towards His bride, the Church (Eph 5 quoted above), WE can say that we, TOO, share in the life of God, His glory, and even in His work. We share in His work of creation, for example ("you" brought life into the world, did you not? You are not going to deny that "you" were involved? All that pain and so forth?). By sharing, though, we are not EXCLUDING God! But it is BECAUSE God IS Love that He shares of Himself.
Baptism is nowhere referred to as “born of water” in Scripture. Jesus’ explanation in verse 6 is that He is referring to physical birth.“Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” In other words, there are two types of birth – natural and spiritual.
Jesus specifically refutes the idea that being "born from above" refers to a physical birth to Nicodemus' confusion in verse 4. Thus, "born of water" is NOT physical birth...Jesus is merely making a distinction between the physical and the spiritual. Spiritual birth is different then physical birth.
I believe that scripture is clear that repentance and faith are necessary for salvation not a magic act preformed on an unknowing , unbelieving, unrepentant infant
Are you familiar with circumcision? It was the means by which people were admitted into the People of God in the Old Testament. Notice that vast majority of them were infants. Did the infants ASKED to be entered into the People of God? No. The parents brought the child to the Temple, covenanting with God on behalf of the child. Circumcision is an important parallel and link with Baptism. Christ elevated that ordinance of the OT to a new and perfected level of grace. Early Christians were quite aware of this, as Paul writes in Colossians:
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Col 2:11-12
These Christians knew the effects of Baptism was to regenerate, to wash away sin and bring grace. They knew that Circumcision was a shadow of the good things to come. It had no power to save, but they knew that now, Baptism saves you (1 Peter 3:21, quoted above). They knew these things because they were taught it by the Apostles. Further proof of this is found in historical writings of the practices of the earliest Christians. It would seem strange that they would ignore the teachings of the Apostles UNAMINOUSLY and institute infant baptism if it wasn't taught by the Apostles. Recall, everything that Christians did and believed are not written down within the Scriptures.
I wrote: "I am not aware of ANYWHERE in Scripture of a place that talks about judgment as receiving lesser rewards. It always seems to be about either entering into eternal bliss, or not entering into eternal bliss."
None of those verses you gave me told me anything about people who were judged lacking in love receiving a smaller reward in heaven. Judgment is always in the context of either one is rewarded with heaven or punished to eternal hell
There are many more examples of Jesus and the apostles teaching and preaching salvation by Faith. The most potent example is the salvation of the thief on the cross, there was repentance and belief and then the promise of salvation.
The faith of the good thief was not alone, however. He first repented of his evil. Secondly, his actions of love for Christ were shown in his defense against the words of the bad thief. Even in this case, I see faith with love.
I wrote "The love we show has several purposes, I suppose. First, it gives glory to God.
Not according to the cookie story :)
Again, the child did not take glory away from the mother. Did the mother react in that fashion? Did the father believe that the child did everything herself WITHOUT the mother? When we love, it is understood that we are giving God glory - we already have established that I or you cannot love WITHOUT God! It is important to realize that the girl is NOT excluding the mother, nor do we exclude God when we say "I love you".
I wrote "We are saved by faith, but not faith alone. That is an important distinction.
But that is what the Bible teaches, that is what Jesus taught.
Jesus NEVER excluded anything when He said we are saved by faith. The language does not exclude anything, but makes a positive statement about faith. I believe your theology is reading into what is not there. Jesus taught in various places that we are saved by faith, and in other places, it is clear that He also taught that we are saved by our loving actions. Please note...He also says we can do NOTHING without Him. So take all of what He says TOGETHER - we are saved by faith and by loving actions (which we can do ONLY because we abide in Him). Thus we are not saved by our OWN works. But our works WITH or IN Christ are necessary for salvation into heaven.
I do not think we 'factor out ' love from salvation, but love is a FRUIT of the Holy Spirit, it comes from already being attached to the vine.
Are you then claiming that faith is from you, and not from God? Is the source of your faith different than the source of your love? Why are you making these distinctions regarding the source of faith and love? They both come from God, as GIFTS! As long as we abide in Him, we will grow in BOTH faith and love.
Regards
It strikes me that Protestants and Catholics are talking past each other, with the real dispute being that each of us knows that our view is correct and, therefore, concluding that any other view is incorrect when, maybe, the views aren't really that different.
Could you show me the scripture where Jesus promises giving grace from sacraments?
God tends to work through the visible realm when He grants graces to men (and women). First, a sacrament is a visible sign of God's invisible graces.
I would like a citation where Jesus ever promised grace though a sacrament . Catholics see that the sacraments are a source of grace necessary for salvation. I do not see anywhere that Christ told the church there were graces by participating in "sacraments".
We are told that God is visible all around us, but we are never told that through "sacraments" God is visible or that he has special blessings in them does he? I would be interested in the citations where sacraments are taught as a special source of grace
I first wanted to make the above statement, as it will help you understand how we believe that God works in a special way through the Church sacraments. For example, God's forgiveness and mercy is SEEN through the sacrament of Baptism. The outward sign, the washing with water, signifies the real cleansing of the soul taking place:
We obviously disagree that baptism washes any more than dirt off the head of the baptized infant. My Presbyterian church baptizes infants as a visible sign of the covenant between God and His church. I happen to take more of a credo Baptist position, however neither system holds any magic in the water. We would deny that baptism saves the infant and now that salvation is his to loose. I would say it is an outward sign of an inward change. The change preceded the symbol, just as it does in scripture... unless the infants can repent and believe BEFORE that baptism .
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish" Eph 5:25-27
The "word" spoken of is consistent with the word of faith
AUGUSTINE [Tract 80, in John], "Take away the word, and what is the water save water? Add the word to the element, and it becomes a sacrament, being itself as it were the visible word." The regenerating efficacy of baptism is conveyed in, and by, the divine word alone.
Does the infant baptized speak a word of faith FIRST?
So you think an unsaved unbeliever that curses Christ might have a gift of the INDWELLING Holy Spirit?
No. Not all Muslims curse Christ. A person can be a Muslim and not actively "hate" Christ, just as a Protestant can be a Christian and not believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. And secondly, God does not judge us based on what we don't know. How much does a Muslim in the middle of Iraq know about Jesus Christ? He has been given only one side of the story
There are few Muslims that have not HEARD and refused the gospel. Their denial of Christ IS hatred of Christ. It seems you have no problem believing contrary to scripture that men can be saved without Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God will indwell one that does not know Christ.
Lets see what God says of their worship of a false god. Have you seen the pictures of them bowing down to that huge block ?
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me
Those that God is speaking of bowed down to their gods not knowing any other god but theirs, God says they hated Him
The unsaved world hates Christ
Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
Paul says this
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
James put it this way
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Are you then saying that those that deny Christ have the indwelling Spirit of God living in them? Do you believe that a belief in Christ is necessary to be saved?
I totally agree, which is why Catholics say we cannot KNOW for absolute certain, that we will go to heaven when we die. We can be "pretty sure", based on our examination of our actions (moved by God, of course), but we can never be certain. We run the race until the end.
That sounds as if your salvation is merited by the works you do?? Is not salvation by grace (Gods unmerited favor)?
The bible says we can have an assurance of our own salvation. I can only say I have a peace with my eternity, I know God has saved me. I did not deserve it, I did not earn it and without His ever present grace I could never persevere in it. God has replaced that deceptive heart with a new one, on which he sits on the throne.
You know I worked in a hospital for many years, I had an opportunity to see death many many times. I have heard it said that Christians" die well" . Having watched death many times, I have seen men cry out in fear of the unknown and plead not to die, and I have seen people look to death as a reunion with God and smile as they leave this life into the next.
Most memorable is a frail elderly Black Baptist woman, that was facing surgery that might be the end of her life. I held her hand and asked if she would like prayer. She looked at me and said "honey, when I pass I will be a at banquet table where i will never be hungry or want again. I will just be going home.
That is dying well because of that inner assurance :)
I believe that there are rewards for those that are obedient and wise in the use of the gifts of Holy Spirit and the work ordained by God for us. Of special import to me is that we see it as a work of God and not OUR work
A note here is in order. I have taken great pains to tell you that we COOPERATE with God. I have over and over said that we do NOTHING ALONE. I want to make it clear one final time that Catholics do NOT believe we do anything of our own. We believe that God works within us to do anything of value. But because it is a amalgamation (Christ and I), I can say it is "my" work, understanding that it is not mine ALONE. Rest assured, we naturally understand that nothing of our own, alone, is worthy of salvation.
I guess I see that as skirting a bit. God and I do it, so I can say I do it ? Who naturally understands that God is not the prime mover? The unsaved? The people that give out awards to men? I think I understand what you are saying, I would just say the bible says if you get the praise of men there are no eternal rewards
Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
So someone that feeds the hungry and then gets the Christian of the year award has no heavenly reward for that . On the other hand, when it is made clear that the deed is in the name of the Lord
Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
I do not know about you, but I know that my ego is still sinful enough that I like the appreciation of men, I have to be conscious at all times that the work is Gods and the glory is Gods, i am simply a tool in the hand of the master
The question is truth, did the little girl REALLY make the cookies? If your work really could not be done without God why would you desire to claim autonomy in that act?
You are reading into the story what is not there. The girl never said "I made the cookies by MYSELF".
Now you know that was the implication of the entire story. She said look at the cookies I MADE
Lying by omission is still lying :)
That is important to understand. Unless someone actually says, "I did it WITHOUT God", we cannot assume that someone is EXCLUDING God from the action. The point of the story is to say that God SHARES His glory with man. So your quote from Isaiah 42 also misses the point. No, God does not GIVE His glory up to men, but as a Lover, He shares it. Being married, you should be familiar with the concept of love = sharing of SELF. Since marriage is a sign of what God does towards His bride, the Church (Eph 5 quoted above), WE can say that we, TOO, share in the life of God, His glory, and even in His work. We share in His work of creation, for example ("you" brought life into the world, did you not? You are not going to deny that "you" were involved? All that pain and so forth?). By sharing, though, we are not EXCLUDING God! But it is BECAUSE God IS Love that He shares of Himself.
So your quote from Isaiah 42 also misses the point. No, God does not GIVE His glory up to men, but as a Lover, He shares it. Being married, you should be familiar with the concept of love = sharing of SELF.
WWJD ?
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The son of God praised the work of the Father IN Him .
Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Even the Apostles gave credit to God for the works of Christ, might it be that Christ gave them that example?
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Did Jesus omit the source of His works expecting that men would just "know" they were done by God in Him?
I believe that scripture is clear that repentance and faith are necessary for salvation not a magic act preformed on an unknowing , unbelieving, unrepentant infant
Are you familiar with circumcision? It was the means by which people were admitted into the People of God in the Old Testament. Notice that vast majority of them were infants. Did the infants ASKED to be entered into the People of God? No. The parents brought the child to the Temple, covenanting with God on behalf of the child. Circumcision is an important parallel and link with Baptism. Christ elevated that ordinance of the OT to a new and perfected level of grace. Early Christians were quite aware of this, as Paul writes in Colossians:
They were not saved by circumcision, it was a mark of the covenant. The NT says repent , believe. be baptized. When a 4 week old infant can obey that command I might see baptism as an efficacious act :)
I wrote: "I am not aware of ANYWHERE in Scripture of a place that talks about judgment as receiving lesser rewards. It always seems to be about either entering into eternal bliss, or not entering into eternal bliss."
None of those verses you gave me told me anything about people who were judged lacking in love receiving a smaller reward in heaven. Judgment is always in the context of either one is rewarded with heaven or punished to eternal hell
You said you were not aware of a judgment of rewards, that is was always about salvation, I pointed you to the scripture that says the elect have rewards in heaven. Perhaps there were no scriptures that said that those that 'loved less " got less rewards because there is no such scripture.
There are many more examples of Jesus and the apostles teaching and preaching salvation by Faith. The most potent example is the salvation of the thief on the cross, there was repentance and belief and then the promise of salvation.
The faith of the good thief was not alone, however. He first repented of his evil. Secondly, his actions of love for Christ were shown in his defense against the words of the bad thief. Even in this case, I see faith with love.
What you do not see is Baptism or Purgatory. We are back to was it the carnal love of a man or the perfect love of the Holy Spirit indwelling the thief?
He was saved by faith alone. He followed the biblical mandate to acknowledge himself as a sinner in need of a Savior and he acknowledged Christ as that savior .. Remember when Peter recognized Jesus as Lord? What did Jesus say to him?
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
I believe we can have assurance that The father in heaven revealed the person of Christ to the thief , just as He did to Peter and just as He does to us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
I wrote "We are saved by faith, but not faith alone. That is an important distinction.
But that is what the Bible teaches, that is what Jesus taught.
Jesus NEVER excluded anything when He said we are saved by faith. The language does not exclude anything, but makes a positive statement about faith. I believe your theology is reading into what is not there.
You are building a doctrine based on what Jesus did not "exclude" and you say that I am building a theology on what is not there? The doctrine of the reformation is based on exactly what scripture teaches, it is not built on the silence of scripture on a point
Jesus taught in various places that we are saved by faith, and in other places, it is clear that He also taught that we are saved by our loving actions.
Did he? Or did he say that the Sheep ( the elect) preform God pleasing works, and the Goats do not? He never says that they are saved by their works, He only speaks of the works done by both groups. The goats were never sheep and the sheep were never goats.
Please note...He also says we can do NOTHING without Him. So take all of what He says TOGETHER - we are saved by faith and by loving actions (which we can do ONLY because we abide in Him). Thus we are not saved by our OWN works. But our works WITH or IN Christ are necessary for salvation into heaven.
I know a works based salvation is a very tempting thing to believe. That makes us responsible for our own salvation. Men like to be responsible for themselves. There is no scripture anywhere that says one can not be saved without works, but there are scriptures that say one can not be saved without faith.