Could you show me the scripture where Jesus promises giving grace from sacraments?
God tends to work through the visible realm when He grants graces to men (and women). First, a sacrament is a visible sign of God's invisible graces.
I would like a citation where Jesus ever promised grace though a sacrament . Catholics see that the sacraments are a source of grace necessary for salvation. I do not see anywhere that Christ told the church there were graces by participating in "sacraments".
We are told that God is visible all around us, but we are never told that through "sacraments" God is visible or that he has special blessings in them does he? I would be interested in the citations where sacraments are taught as a special source of grace
I first wanted to make the above statement, as it will help you understand how we believe that God works in a special way through the Church sacraments. For example, God's forgiveness and mercy is SEEN through the sacrament of Baptism. The outward sign, the washing with water, signifies the real cleansing of the soul taking place:
We obviously disagree that baptism washes any more than dirt off the head of the baptized infant. My Presbyterian church baptizes infants as a visible sign of the covenant between God and His church. I happen to take more of a credo Baptist position, however neither system holds any magic in the water. We would deny that baptism saves the infant and now that salvation is his to loose. I would say it is an outward sign of an inward change. The change preceded the symbol, just as it does in scripture... unless the infants can repent and believe BEFORE that baptism .
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish" Eph 5:25-27
The "word" spoken of is consistent with the word of faith
AUGUSTINE [Tract 80, in John], "Take away the word, and what is the water save water? Add the word to the element, and it becomes a sacrament, being itself as it were the visible word." The regenerating efficacy of baptism is conveyed in, and by, the divine word alone.
Does the infant baptized speak a word of faith FIRST?
So you think an unsaved unbeliever that curses Christ might have a gift of the INDWELLING Holy Spirit?
No. Not all Muslims curse Christ. A person can be a Muslim and not actively "hate" Christ, just as a Protestant can be a Christian and not believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. And secondly, God does not judge us based on what we don't know. How much does a Muslim in the middle of Iraq know about Jesus Christ? He has been given only one side of the story
There are few Muslims that have not HEARD and refused the gospel. Their denial of Christ IS hatred of Christ. It seems you have no problem believing contrary to scripture that men can be saved without Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God will indwell one that does not know Christ.
Lets see what God says of their worship of a false god. Have you seen the pictures of them bowing down to that huge block ?
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me
Those that God is speaking of bowed down to their gods not knowing any other god but theirs, God says they hated Him
The unsaved world hates Christ
Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
Paul says this
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
James put it this way
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Are you then saying that those that deny Christ have the indwelling Spirit of God living in them? Do you believe that a belief in Christ is necessary to be saved?
I totally agree, which is why Catholics say we cannot KNOW for absolute certain, that we will go to heaven when we die. We can be "pretty sure", based on our examination of our actions (moved by God, of course), but we can never be certain. We run the race until the end.
That sounds as if your salvation is merited by the works you do?? Is not salvation by grace (Gods unmerited favor)?
The bible says we can have an assurance of our own salvation. I can only say I have a peace with my eternity, I know God has saved me. I did not deserve it, I did not earn it and without His ever present grace I could never persevere in it. God has replaced that deceptive heart with a new one, on which he sits on the throne.
You know I worked in a hospital for many years, I had an opportunity to see death many many times. I have heard it said that Christians" die well" . Having watched death many times, I have seen men cry out in fear of the unknown and plead not to die, and I have seen people look to death as a reunion with God and smile as they leave this life into the next.
Most memorable is a frail elderly Black Baptist woman, that was facing surgery that might be the end of her life. I held her hand and asked if she would like prayer. She looked at me and said "honey, when I pass I will be a at banquet table where i will never be hungry or want again. I will just be going home.
That is dying well because of that inner assurance :)
I believe that there are rewards for those that are obedient and wise in the use of the gifts of Holy Spirit and the work ordained by God for us. Of special import to me is that we see it as a work of God and not OUR work
A note here is in order. I have taken great pains to tell you that we COOPERATE with God. I have over and over said that we do NOTHING ALONE. I want to make it clear one final time that Catholics do NOT believe we do anything of our own. We believe that God works within us to do anything of value. But because it is a amalgamation (Christ and I), I can say it is "my" work, understanding that it is not mine ALONE. Rest assured, we naturally understand that nothing of our own, alone, is worthy of salvation.
I guess I see that as skirting a bit. God and I do it, so I can say I do it ? Who naturally understands that God is not the prime mover? The unsaved? The people that give out awards to men? I think I understand what you are saying, I would just say the bible says if you get the praise of men there are no eternal rewards
Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
So someone that feeds the hungry and then gets the Christian of the year award has no heavenly reward for that . On the other hand, when it is made clear that the deed is in the name of the Lord
Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
I do not know about you, but I know that my ego is still sinful enough that I like the appreciation of men, I have to be conscious at all times that the work is Gods and the glory is Gods, i am simply a tool in the hand of the master
The question is truth, did the little girl REALLY make the cookies? If your work really could not be done without God why would you desire to claim autonomy in that act?
You are reading into the story what is not there. The girl never said "I made the cookies by MYSELF".
Now you know that was the implication of the entire story. She said look at the cookies I MADE
Lying by omission is still lying :)
That is important to understand. Unless someone actually says, "I did it WITHOUT God", we cannot assume that someone is EXCLUDING God from the action. The point of the story is to say that God SHARES His glory with man. So your quote from Isaiah 42 also misses the point. No, God does not GIVE His glory up to men, but as a Lover, He shares it. Being married, you should be familiar with the concept of love = sharing of SELF. Since marriage is a sign of what God does towards His bride, the Church (Eph 5 quoted above), WE can say that we, TOO, share in the life of God, His glory, and even in His work. We share in His work of creation, for example ("you" brought life into the world, did you not? You are not going to deny that "you" were involved? All that pain and so forth?). By sharing, though, we are not EXCLUDING God! But it is BECAUSE God IS Love that He shares of Himself.
So your quote from Isaiah 42 also misses the point. No, God does not GIVE His glory up to men, but as a Lover, He shares it. Being married, you should be familiar with the concept of love = sharing of SELF.
WWJD ?
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The son of God praised the work of the Father IN Him .
Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Even the Apostles gave credit to God for the works of Christ, might it be that Christ gave them that example?
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Did Jesus omit the source of His works expecting that men would just "know" they were done by God in Him?
I believe that scripture is clear that repentance and faith are necessary for salvation not a magic act preformed on an unknowing , unbelieving, unrepentant infant
Are you familiar with circumcision? It was the means by which people were admitted into the People of God in the Old Testament. Notice that vast majority of them were infants. Did the infants ASKED to be entered into the People of God? No. The parents brought the child to the Temple, covenanting with God on behalf of the child. Circumcision is an important parallel and link with Baptism. Christ elevated that ordinance of the OT to a new and perfected level of grace. Early Christians were quite aware of this, as Paul writes in Colossians:
They were not saved by circumcision, it was a mark of the covenant. The NT says repent , believe. be baptized. When a 4 week old infant can obey that command I might see baptism as an efficacious act :)
I wrote: "I am not aware of ANYWHERE in Scripture of a place that talks about judgment as receiving lesser rewards. It always seems to be about either entering into eternal bliss, or not entering into eternal bliss."
None of those verses you gave me told me anything about people who were judged lacking in love receiving a smaller reward in heaven. Judgment is always in the context of either one is rewarded with heaven or punished to eternal hell
You said you were not aware of a judgment of rewards, that is was always about salvation, I pointed you to the scripture that says the elect have rewards in heaven. Perhaps there were no scriptures that said that those that 'loved less " got less rewards because there is no such scripture.
There are many more examples of Jesus and the apostles teaching and preaching salvation by Faith. The most potent example is the salvation of the thief on the cross, there was repentance and belief and then the promise of salvation.
The faith of the good thief was not alone, however. He first repented of his evil. Secondly, his actions of love for Christ were shown in his defense against the words of the bad thief. Even in this case, I see faith with love.
What you do not see is Baptism or Purgatory. We are back to was it the carnal love of a man or the perfect love of the Holy Spirit indwelling the thief?
He was saved by faith alone. He followed the biblical mandate to acknowledge himself as a sinner in need of a Savior and he acknowledged Christ as that savior .. Remember when Peter recognized Jesus as Lord? What did Jesus say to him?
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
I believe we can have assurance that The father in heaven revealed the person of Christ to the thief , just as He did to Peter and just as He does to us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
I wrote "We are saved by faith, but not faith alone. That is an important distinction.
But that is what the Bible teaches, that is what Jesus taught.
Jesus NEVER excluded anything when He said we are saved by faith. The language does not exclude anything, but makes a positive statement about faith. I believe your theology is reading into what is not there.
You are building a doctrine based on what Jesus did not "exclude" and you say that I am building a theology on what is not there? The doctrine of the reformation is based on exactly what scripture teaches, it is not built on the silence of scripture on a point
Jesus taught in various places that we are saved by faith, and in other places, it is clear that He also taught that we are saved by our loving actions.
Did he? Or did he say that the Sheep ( the elect) preform God pleasing works, and the Goats do not? He never says that they are saved by their works, He only speaks of the works done by both groups. The goats were never sheep and the sheep were never goats.
Please note...He also says we can do NOTHING without Him. So take all of what He says TOGETHER - we are saved by faith and by loving actions (which we can do ONLY because we abide in Him). Thus we are not saved by our OWN works. But our works WITH or IN Christ are necessary for salvation into heaven.
I know a works based salvation is a very tempting thing to believe. That makes us responsible for our own salvation. Men like to be responsible for themselves. There is no scripture anywhere that says one can not be saved without works, but there are scriptures that say one can not be saved without faith.
Well, first, grace is understood as the Holy Spirit coming to us, correct? It is described in various ways in the NT. For example:
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. (John 6:56-58)
In the sacrament of the Eucharist, God comes to us in the form of bread. He promises to abide in us in a special way through a visible means.
Another example is marriage:
"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery (sacrament = mystery): but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband." (Eph 5:28-33)
We have already discussed Baptism, and I believe I have shown that the Holy Spirit comes to a person and that sins are forgiven (remission of sins) during the ritual.
We would deny that baptism saves the infant and now that salvation is his to loose. I would say it is an outward sign of an inward change. The change preceded the symbol, just as it does in scripture... unless the infants can repent and believe BEFORE that baptism .
What is salvation? It has several definitions. To me, it means a "healing". In the spiritual realm, that means that sins have been forgiven. There has been a remission of sins. Again, I have quoted verses that show that Baptism provides a remission of sins. Merely saying "Jesus Christ is Lord" is not going to "heal" me. While the Spirit is operative within you before your water baptism, sins are not forgiven until the Baptism. It is through the visible signs that God works behind the scenes and cleanses our inner invisible self. The water ITSELF does nothing but gets us wet. However, when we SEE the water, and KNOW what the Church is doing, WE KNOW that that person is being saved.
The regenerating efficacy of baptism is conveyed in, and by, the divine word alone.
Of course. The water does nothing in of itself but SIGNIFY that a person has been cleansed internally. When the Church performs the ritual, God has promised that the Spirit would come and forgive sins. He is thus saved (healed).
Does the infant baptized speak a word of faith FIRST?
The "word" comes from the priest performing the ritual. He says "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The "word" is the Trinity, God. Not the person's faith proclamation. You seem to be saying that Baptism is a work of the person being baptized. Does anything show that Baptism is entirely a gift from God like infant baptism does? The infant has done NOTHING to deserve salvation. By your line of thinking, it appears that we must first conjure up enough faith within yourself for our baptism to be effective - a work.
There are few Muslims that have not HEARD and refused the gospel. Their denial of Christ IS hatred of Christ. It seems you have no problem believing contrary to scripture that men can be saved without Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God will indwell one that does not know Christ.
I disagree. First, Muslims haven't heard the Good News, only a distorted version of it from the mullahs - who don't know it either. Only another Christian can preach the Good News, it is not a philosophy you get from reading a book. Thus, they are not denying Christ, only a straw man of Christ. Next, I never said that they can be saved WITHOUT Christ. Christ is operative, we KNOW, when that person performs good works, fruits of the Holy Spirit. A person doesn't need to be a Roman Catholic to produce good deeds of love, which can ONLY be performed through Jesus Christ. The Spirit blows where HE WILLS. Not where we will. We cannot limit God's Spirit to only certain groups of people. Jesus did not limit Himself to only the Jews. On occasions, He healed (saved) Gentiles. This, from the Gospels, should be proof enough that God CAN save even those who are non-Christians. They will be saved by Christ, not Hinduism or Islam. They will be saved by the Spirit of God working in them.
All your verses speak about those "of the world". But if a person LOVES, he is not of the "world", is he? Christ is operative within that person, as shown by the fruit he produces, the deeds of love for others - without ulterior motive. I agree there will not be many of these people, ratio-wise, but just the same, we don't know who the elect are. Just as 2000 years ago, He reached out to Samaritans and Gentiles, He continues to do so today.
The bible says we can have an assurance of our own salvation. I can only say I have a peace with my eternity, I know God has saved me. I did not deserve it, I did not earn it and without His ever present grace I could never persevere in it. God has replaced that deceptive heart with a new one, on which he sits on the throne.
1 John tells us that we can have an assurance that we are saved BY the fruit that we produce. In other words, IF we are obeying the commandments out of love, we KNOW that the Spirit of God is operative within us. It is not ourselves!!! It is God working WITH us. (as the cookie story tells). A key verse, for me, is the following:
He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)
Simple and to the point. If Christ abides in you (think to John 15 and the vine), you will have life. How do we know He abides in us? Our good works. Thus, if we are sinning, Christ is NOT abiding in us. We will NOT inherit the Kingdom, as Paul says. Thus, "my" good works SHOW that Christ is abiding in me. This is why it is necessary to have faith and works. As Paul states, faith without love is worthless (1 Cor 13:2). But we cannot love without faith! We need both.
That is dying well because of that inner assurance :)
I volunteered to bring Communion to Catholics in the hospital for a few months, I understand what you are saying. But inner assurance doesn't guarantee heaven. Hitler has an inner assurance he was doing the right thing by killing millions of Jews. We can know we are saved by heaven by our faith AND works. If a person dies in that state, they are assured of heaven BECAUSE God is righteous and has promised us heaven for our obedience to His graces. (not because we felt sure of it)
I would just say the bible says if you get the praise of men there are no eternal rewards
In Matthew's Gospel, the fifth chapter (Sermon on the Mount), Jesus talks about prayer, fasting and almsgiving. In each case, he tells us to DO them, but NOT to gain human praise! Thus, again, our motives are what is important. We are to fast, pray, and give to the poor - out of love of God. Jesus condemns those who do it for selfish gain. I think if a person does something out of love without intent of getting anything in return, but is praised latter on by someone who finds out, this will not take away our reward in heaven. Doesn't the Scripture tell us that NO ONE can separate us from the love of God? If we did something out of love in the first place, no one can take away our reward.
I do not know about you, but I know that my ego is still sinful enough that I like the appreciation of men, I have to be conscious at all times that the work is Gods and the glory is Gods, i am simply a tool in the hand of the master
Excellent advice. That is what St. Francis de Sales suggests in "Introduction to the Devout Life". He says to fight fits of pride (if we are good at something), we are to constantly remind ourselves that God is the giver of the gift, and He could have NOT given it to us. I try to remind myself of that as often as possible.
Now you know that was the implication of the entire story. She said look at the cookies I MADE. Lying by omission is still lying :)
Wow, I never got that response before from that story! I think you are looking beyond what even YOU do all the time:
When you say "I love you" to your children, by your logic, you are denying that God is loving through you! You are loving carnally, and thus are sinning by making such a statement...This line of thinking is utterly ridiculous. Get rid of it. When you say "I love you", it is not necessary to say "Oops, I meant, God is allowing me to love you". It is just understood. You are not DENYING that God is operative when you say I love you. In the story, the Father KNOWS the kid didn't do it alone. The KID never makes that claim either. We UNDERSTAND that God is working through us. We don't deny it. But we don't verbally say it everytime we say "I love you", do we?
The son of God praised the work of the Father IN Him .
On numerous ocassions, He did not mention His Father when He said He preached, or teached or healed. Does this mean Jesus was denying the Father??? Come on. Let's be realistic. It is not necessary that every statement of "I" be followed by "God is the source" or "God is the power behind it" or whatever. As long as we don't take pride in our action, recognizing who IS the source, then we are on the right road.
You said you were not aware of a judgment of rewards, that is was always about salvation, I pointed you to the scripture that says the elect have rewards in heaven. Perhaps there were no scriptures that said that those that 'loved less " got less rewards because there is no such scripture.
Thus, judgment is either to heaven or hell, correct?
What you do not see is Baptism or Purgatory (regarding the good thief)
We don't know that! First, how do you know the good thief was not baptized before by Christ? How do you know He didn't follow Christ, then went away in John 6 or some other point? Even if not, it is a common belief that martyrs are considered "baptized by blood" - that the Spirit is obviously present for a man to die for Christ. And secondly, we don't know how time works in the after life. It is perfectly feasible that the thief spent "time" in Purgatory and that same "day" went to Paradise. The Church has not defined this matter of how "long" our purging is in Purgatory.
He was saved by faith alone
No he wasn't, he also opened his mouth and defended Christ. He repented for his sins. That is not faith alone. It is also repentance and love in the face of persecution
Remember when Peter recognized Jesus as Lord? What did Jesus say to him?
I agree, the action of the thief was brought on by the Spirit. But it is not the only fruit (faith) that was in action within the thief.
Did he? Or did he say that the Sheep ( the elect) preform God pleasing works, and the Goats do not? He never says that they are saved by their works, He only speaks of the works done by both groups. The goats were never sheep and the sheep were never goats.
Read the parable again. The judgment is BASED upon what they did. Whether one is a sheep or a goat is determined by what they did. No sheep was judged to be uncaring, no goat was judged to be caring. Thus, judgment depended on their actions to others.
I know a works based salvation is a very tempting thing to believe. That makes us responsible for our own salvation. Men like to be responsible for themselves. There is no scripture anywhere that says one can not be saved without works, but there are scriptures that say one can not be saved without faith.
Yes, it can be tempting. But it is not what we have been taught by the Church. There are plenty of Scriptures that say that faith without works is dead or worthless - not capable of saving.
Regards