The man said that he has caste out demons, prophesied and did many "wonderful works" is it your position that freeing one from demons is not good works? If you consider works NECESSARY for salvation then is there not an expectation of "payment" ( salvation) attached to them? Even in the sacramental system ( that as a protestant consider works) does not one expect that there are "graces" connected to correct participation? Is not those expectations God owing one for a correct choice or work or participation?
“Every one therefore that hears these my words, and does them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that hears these my words, and does them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof”. (Mat 7:24-27)
Note, Jesus, as He does throughout the Sermon, emphasizes our DOING. He is NOT condemning actions! Perish the thought!
Having your house fall down and wash away is not a judgment? Was the great flood a judgment?
The question asked by Jesus, “did we not drive out demons in your name” is best explained by 1 Cor 13:2: “if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains (or cast out demons!), and have not love, I am nothing.” Christ is disdainful towards works without love. Action with love, however, is what HE COMMANDS! “Everyone who listens to my words (Mat 5 through Mat 7) AND ACTS UPON THEM will be like a wise man
" Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
I think we might agree that an unsaved man can not bring forth good fruit as he is not attached to the vine, so all his fruit would be bad to the Lord. correct?
Now on the wise man ... Is wisdom a gift of God or is it like love in your opinion , self generated?
Do we agree that there is a wisdom of the carnal man and a wisdom that is from God?
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
So the man that builds his house on a rock, does not do that out of his own wisdom, but out of the wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirits guidance.
Clearly, Christ desires deeds of love. So does Paul. So does the rest of the NT writers. Christ left us ONE commandment: to love others as He had loved us. God doesn’t “know” the religious hypocrites who do works without love!
To whom was he speaking when he told us to love one and other? He was speaking to the converted, the saved , believers . That is because within them dwell the Love of God and the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Read this, it was a command TO THE DISCIPLES not a command to unsaved men . The command was that they LOVE EACH OTHER as an example of his love . The unsaved can not fulfill this command of Christ, only believers can .
Can you fulfill that command? Can you love ANYONE as He has loved ?
When reading scripture context means things, look at the audience to whom he was speaking.
Can an unsaved man have the love of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him? Did the Holy Spirit indwell hitler? Jeffery Dalemler? Jeffrey loved the men he killed and ate. He loved them so much that he wanted them to be a real part of him.
See we are back to the issue of the love of God indwelling the believer versus the love of men that comes from a carnal heart. God sees no benefit to the "good works"coming from a carnal heart.. Scripture indicates that the only love that is pleasing to God is His love ( and his work).
We can’t “inspect” the harvest until it has arrived, can we? Thus, we are not fruit “speculators” presuming we know how the harvest will be in five years, but “inspectors” of what is present and visible. We can only possibly inspect what we see growing – not what we THINK will be growing in five years.
I agree that our "judgment" of the fruit is temporal and not eternal. There are many evil persons that come to Christ in faith on their death beds. But that does not mean that we are not to make judgments in the here and now. Seeing a man that is a pimp, that denies God should cause us to present the gospel to him. If we do not judge that the man would be lost should he die that night, we fail to follow the great commandment. Failure to see the man you are about to get into a business contract with is a thief and a liar and a non believer cause us to deny the words of Christ that we not be unequally yoked.
But WE don’t know who the unsaved are. Only God has access to the Book of Life. Thus, it is not Christian to judge who is saved and who is not saved. That is up to God, not us.
The final judgment of men, is indeed Gods to render. But while we walk this earth he has told us to judge who we are friends with, who we do business with, who we marry and to seek the unsaved to present them with the gospel.
May I ask why you believe the gift of discernment is listed in the gifts of the indwelling Holy Spirit if we are to hold all men as "the same"?
In the end, when we are judged based on our faith working through love, those who were evil and do not desire God’s eternal presence will be judged accordingly.
Who's love? Your love? When you say that we will be 'judged" on our faith working through love" are you talking about judgment to salvation or damnation or judgment for rewards ?
That’s it? I find verses that contradict that idea or interpretation of those verses in that manner.
So then do you believe Paul was wrong?
We see that as a Baptismal formula, thus, the words are spoken by a person who is being baptized (“lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses” 1 Tim 6:12).
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
This verse does not address salvation by baptism
We are saved (healed) by Baptism.
Scripture on that please? The only scripture that even comes close to teaching salvation in baptism is Peters comment in acts, where as throughout the NT salvation by faith is taught .
But our salvation is not “done” with that! Paul himself stated “For the kingdom of God is not in speech, but in power.” (1 Cor 4:20).
And that says what about needing to do works to be saved? Paul later says what he meant by that
1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
We both know what James says in chapter 2 about faith without works (good deeds)…
James teaches that if there are no works there is no saving faith. He is addressing those that may have a profession of faith, yet do not have saving faith in Christ. He does not say that if there is works they give you faith, rather that the works of God come out of your faith in Christ. This book was written to the saved,he was teaching them not how to be saved, but how the world will know that they are Christians.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
The works show our faith to the unsaved world and each other, they do not give us faith or save us. (back to fruit inspection :)
As I have pointed out works that are pleasing to God are the works He ordains and does through us. It is HE that makes our works worthy not us.
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Abraham was justified before men when he placed his sonly son on the altar, they were able to see his faith, and the story is still told how it was he trusted God and had faith in God to keep His promise.
And John says “My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth” (1 John 3:18).
To whom was he speaking? I believe the 'little children" were the saved. This was not a lesson on how to be saved, but how to live out your faith.
Finally, Jesus makes a number of statements along this line, such as what we have been discussing in Matthew 7 and its parallel in Luke 6. He emphasizes DOING, LOVING. Not just talk. Thus, salvation requires more than just a simple Baptismal proclamation of faith. Salvation is an ongoing process, one requiring perseverance.
So then it is your position that if one does not do wrks one loses their salvation? Are the works then for Gods glory or your eternal salvation? Are they serving God or a means to an end?
There are numerous others, but I think you get the picture… The ELECT will persevere, not the “saints”. We don’t know who the elect of God are. Whether the saints on earth persevere or not is not guaranteed by Scripture!
Indeed the elect will persevere, not in their own strength or power or works, but by the grace of God .
Interesting article on how one knows if they are elect
Do you believe that you have offended the all-holy Creator (Rom. 3:10–18; Ps. 51:1–4)?
Do you believe that your sins cry out to heaven itself for justice, and that you deserve to perish under the wrath of the God you have offended by your sins (Isa. 59:2–3; Ezek. 18:4)?
Do you believe that you are, in fact, dead in your sins and unable to make yourself alive (Eph. 2:1–3; Rom. 8:5–8)?
Do you believe that nothing you could ever do—no good deeds, no mighty acts of faith, no church attendance, no niceness of character—will ever be sufficient to appease the wrath of your holy Creator against your sins (Mic. 6:6–7; Isa. 59:12–14)?
Do you believe that God, the God you have offended by your sins, has himself provided the way of escape through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5–7; Col. 2:13)?
Have you been united to Christ by faith, a faith you did not earn, but received as a gift from God? Do you believe that, having been savingly joined by faith to the Son of God, your sins are finally and fully paid for, and that you are forgiven and declared righteous, as though you had never sinned (Gal. 2:16, 20; Rom. 8:1–4)?
Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity—that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21–28; 5:1–11)?
election
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
That is the indwelling Holy Spirit . He is loving through us. If you do not have faith in Christ as your Saviour then you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so there is no divine love there,only carnal love .
Indeed we have much agreement. So much so that i must ask you, is one saved by faith or faith and works? If by faith and works, mustn't the faith proceed the works? If our love and works flow out of the indwelling Holy Spirit, must that not mean that the faith has saved us and made us a worthy home for the Holy Spirit in which to dwell. (I assume we agree that the holy Spirit does not live in unregenerate non believers ( saved men)
Ping to the excellent post #1558.
Regards, as always.
Not in the sense that I am speaking, or Paul. If that man cast out demons BECAUSE he thought he was earning his way to heaven (a work without love), then it was useless. A work, even to move mountains, is nothing without love. And so, casting out demons is nothing, without love.
Even in the sacramental system ( that as a protestant consider works) does not one expect that there are "graces" connected to correct participation? Is not those expectations God owing one for a correct choice or work or participation?
We receive graces ONLY because God promised that He would come to us through such contact. He promised that He would forgive our sins through the power of the Apostles. He promised that He would be our food to eat, our spiritual nourishment. Through the sacraments, we receive God’s graces to continue the journey. They are not works, but means of contacting the one we love.
I think we might agree that an unsaved man can not bring forth good fruit as he is not attached to the vine, so all his fruit would be bad to the Lord. correct?
Towards salvation, I think so. An unsaved atheist might do something “good”, even “loving” because he might be cooperating with God’s Law written in his heart at that time. But we are judged not by one deed, but our entire life. An atheist will not walk in faith in God. So in the end, I think we can agree.
Now on the wise man ... Is wisdom a gift of God or is it like love in your opinion , self generated?
I never said love was self-generated! We love because of Christ. Wisdom, like love, is a gift of the Holy Spirit, who blows where He wills, even to the unsaved. In the Scripture, for example, we find cases of God using pagans to do His will – like Cyrus of the Persians. It is the one who uses his gifts often (the Talents parable) who will be rewarded – not based on his own work, of course, but that he used the talents given to him by God.
Do we agree that there is a wisdom of the carnal man and a wisdom that is from God?
Yes, you have clearly shown that there is a worldly wisdom and a wisdom that follows the ways of God (which do not seem wise to the worldly – tongue twister!!). Carnal wisdom will not be of value, unless it happens to coincide with God’s will, such as those atheists who feel compelled to feed the hungry.
So the man that builds his house on a rock, does not do that out of his own wisdom, but out of the wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirits guidance.
I agree.
To whom was he speaking when he told us to love one and other? He was speaking to the converted, the saved , believers . That is because within them dwell the Love of God and the Holy Spirit.
I think Christ intended that we love everyone, even our enemies, don’t you agree? Doesn’t Christ say in the Sermon on the Mount:
You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:43-48)
In John 13, Jesus is merely giving us confirmation – that we KNOW we are His disciples IF we love – not because we make a one-time faith declaration. We KNOW we are disciples BECAUSE we love everyone – not just our friends.
The unsaved can not fulfill this command of Christ, only believers can .
It is potentially to all people, since Christ told His Apostles to teach and preach to the entire WORLD (Mat 28:20) ALL that He taught them. The Gospel is NOT meant just for the “saved”, although ONLY the saved will obey it!
Can you fulfill that command? Can you love ANYONE as He has loved ?
Not without Christ, I can’t. But if He abides in me, for example, through the Eucharist, I can love even my enemies and wish them the best for their sake.
See we are back to the issue of the love of God indwelling the believer versus the love of men that comes from a carnal heart. God sees no benefit to the "good works"coming from a carnal heart.. Scripture indicates that the only love that is pleasing to God is His love ( and his work).
And I agree that “carnal love” is not meritorious for salvation. I don’t think it is “sinful”, but it is not going to be of value. However, how does one judge whether it is carnal or spiritual love? I would say the inner motivation. If a person does something totally for the sake of the other (emulating Christ), then I would say that deed is inspired by the Spirit and is worthy to be counted as meritorious, even if done by a Muslim. Who are we to judge whom the ‘saved’ are? We just don’t know while alive on earth. If we judge a tree by its fruits, and we see a productive “tree”, we presume that the Spirit is working within that person, EVEN if that person doesn’t fit into our little religious definitions of who is saved (belong to “x” church or not).
I agree that our "judgment" of the fruit is temporal and not eternal. There are many evil persons that come to Christ in faith on their death beds. But that does not mean that we are not to make judgments in the here and now. Seeing a man that is a pimp, that denies God should cause us to present the gospel to him. If we do not judge that the man would be lost should he die that night, we fail to follow the great commandment. Failure to see the man you are about to get into a business contract with is a thief and a liar and a non believer cause us to deny the words of Christ that we not be unequally yoked.
Well said. We just shouldn’t jump to conclusions about another person.
May I ask why you believe the gift of discernment is listed in the gifts of the indwelling Holy Spirit if we are to hold all men as "the same"?
I am not saying that all men are the same, just that we shouldn’t “hate” others because we “think” they are of the “unsaved”. We don’t know WHO is unsaved, really. The Gift of Discernment, I think, is not so much about judging other people’s status with God, but determining the correct path to take – “what is God’s will for us in this particular event that is happening to me?”. That is what discernment is.
When you say that we will be 'judged" on our faith working through love" are you talking about judgment to salvation or damnation or judgment for rewards ?
I am not aware of ANYWHERE in Scripture of a place that talks about judgment as receiving lesser rewards. It always seems to be about either entering into eternal bliss, or not entering into eternal bliss. Regarding judgment, we are judged based on how well we used the talents God gave us. We are judged how well we used the Spirit’s gifts. We are judged how well we loved, BECAUSE we abided in Christ. Basically, we are judged because we trusted in our Father and cooperated with His Will for us, not because of anything we did ALONE.
As a mother, you might appreciate this analogy…
Say you and your two year old daughter are going to bake cookies. You include her because you love her, not because you need her. You “let” her mix the batter, or place the batter on the cookie sheets. You do this together, a work of love, not because she is earning anything. You enjoy being with her, doing it together. You don’t CARE if she is not needed to make the cookies. That is not the purpose of the activity. And when Daddy comes home and your daughter says “look, Daddy, I made cookies”, would you get upset? Would you say “How dare you say you made the cookies? You are stealing my glory and honor and praise due me! You can do nothing alone!” Of course not. And this is what is going on between God and us. We really CAN say “I made the cookies”, although technically, I couldn’t have done it without the Spirit. It is a work of love. God deeply desires to be with us and work with us, now and in eternal heaven.
Does that make more sense? This is the Catholic point of view on “works” and cooperation with God.
Scripture on that please? {being saved by Baptism}
“Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3: 4-5)
“Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? 38But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call” (Acts 2: 37-39)
“He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned” (Mark 16:16)
why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. (Acts 22:16)
For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:2-4)
There are another half dozen or so, but this is enough.
And that says what about needing to do works to be saved? Paul later says what he meant by that : 1Cr 2:4, Rom 1:16
Well, of course, our love IS a power of God. Wouldn’t you say that a person who is able to love in the face of persecution and despair is displaying the power of God? Isn’t God’s Power shown the greatest during our weakness?
James teaches that if there are no works there is no saving faith. He is addressing those that may have a profession of faith, yet do not have saving faith in Christ. He does not say that if there is works they give you faith, rather that the works of God come out of your faith in Christ. This book was written to the saved,he was teaching them not how to be saved, but how the world will know that they are Christians.
Pretty much, although I would say that our “works of love” that display our faith come from the Spirit, not our faith. Faith is like getting to first base. Because we get to first doesn’t mean we will score a run. It is only the first step in an ongoing journey.
As I have pointed out works that are pleasing to God are the works He ordains and does through us. It is HE that makes our works worthy not us.
I agree. But let us not forget our “part” in the “work”. At a given moment, we have a choice – to do a good deed or not. We are not irresistibly forced to do something good. Thus, it is OUR good deed (mine and Christ working within me. Without Him, I couldn’t do it, and without me, He allows the good deed to go undone).
Abraham was justified before men when he placed his only son on the altar, they were able to see his faith, and the story is still told how it was he trusted God and had faith in God to keep His promise.
There was no one with Abraham to see that. Read the story more carefully. The servants stayed behind. The test was for Abraham. That way, after the fact, he KNEW that he did God’s will. He KNEW he was justified. It was not for the sake of other men to see, but for Abraham HIMSELF. Of course, God already knew.
So then it is your position that if one does not do wrks one loses their salvation? Are the works then for Gods glory or your eternal salvation? Are they serving God or a means to an end?
I hope by the time you get this far, you will see that “my” (Catholic) position is that we must continue to walk in faith. We must continue to cooperate with the graces (talents) that God gave/gives us. We must show our faith through love. If we don’t love, we aren’t saved for heaven. The love we show has several purposes, I suppose. First, it gives glory to God. It also shows Christ to the world. It brings others the truth. Of course, it brings us to fulfillment of our destiny, which even begins in THIS world (as Christ came to bring life, and to live it even today, to the fullest). Our love also brings witness to the world of the truth of God’s Gospel. And of course, finally, it shows we are of Christ.
Indeed the elect will persevere, not in their own strength or power or works, but by the grace of God .
Agree
…Do you believe that, by the grace of God, having turned from your sins and turned to the Son of God to pay for your sins and to give you his own righteousness, you will be received by God as his own dear child, to be loved and blessed by him throughout eternity—that is, that you are saved by God’s unmerited grace (Rom. 3:21–28; 5:1–11)?
Yes, there is nothing I can do alone. My sins deserve eternal punishment. By the grace of God, I can be saved.
Indeed we have much agreement. So much so that i must ask you, is one saved by faith or faith and works? If by faith and works, mustn't the faith proceed the works? If our love and works flow out of the indwelling Holy Spirit, must that not mean that the faith has saved us and made us a worthy home for the Holy Spirit in which to dwell. (I assume we agree that the holy Spirit does not live in unregenerate non believers ( saved men)
We do agree on a lot. It is a matter of figuring out the terms. Once we do that, I think we understand each other better. For example, I hope to have shown you that although we talk about “works” as part of salvation, it is not something we do to earn anything, nor is it something we have done by ourselves. Love is something from God, given back for the sake of God. Yes, faith proceeds the love. We are saved by faith, but not faith alone. That is an important distinction. Unless, of course, you consider your definition of faith to include obedience to God. If we said faith means “intellectual knowledge, trust in God, and obedience to His will”, then I think we could say we are saved by faith alone. Howeve, I am not aware of many defining faith in that way. Personally, after reading the Scriptures, I don’t see how we can factor out love from the formula of salvation. Without it, is it possible for someone to be saved? How much faith does that person possess if he doesn’t have love for his neighbor or God?
Regards